
<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div apple-content-edited="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0000FF" face="'Gill Sans'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">I think cross-compilation should always be the default approach, simply because it avoids all the version issues.  We should be able to bootstrap from any host to any target.  I know there have been deficiencies in the gcc-based cm3cg backend (for example when host and target INTEGER or FLOAT have different formats), but I think we are on the way to eliminating those.  Bootstrapping from .mc files using a native cm3cg probably avoids that though, rather than bootstrapping from host-generated .s files.  Jay, perhaps you have more to add?</span></font></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On 31 Jul 2009, at 12:27, Olaf Wagner wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>I meant getting the first instance of cm3 5.1 run on a certain platform.<br>And there was of course a first platform. We used the SRC compiler,<br>the cm3 4.1 from Critical Mass, and the PM3 compiler on different<br>platforms. Later we used cross-compilation almost exclusively.<br><br>I assume that cross-compilation support has improved dramatically<br>with all your changes.<br><br>Olaf<br><br>Quoting Jay K <<a href="mailto:jay.krell@cornell.edu">jay.krell@cornell.edu</a>>:<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">What does it mean to boot the compiler?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I build the compiler from nothing but the compiler itself,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and config files, and C compiler and linker, cvs<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to get all the source.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">That's not nothing, but it about the smallest start you can have,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">unless you rewrite the compiler in C, then you can start without<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the Modula-3 compiler. But at certain points in time this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">would not work, due to m3core and/or libm3 problems.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">It does work today.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Is that booting?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">In future I'd like to dynamically link cm3, so I'd start with<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">cm3, libm3.so, libm3core.so, etc. -- just cm3 and its "static dynamic"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">dependencies. Many other systems do dynamically link to this extent<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and we can to.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I'm not just being obnoxious.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Really, what does it mean?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Should we just ship std and that's it?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And even drop the name from it?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">  cm3-PPC_LINUX-5.8.2.tar.gz ?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(No need to say "POSIX", it is redundant).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Just one download per platform?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Not a big matrix of packages to test?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Or do we look too fat in that packaging? :)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Will too much stuff confuse users?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Or mitigate the bulk with a little documentation/tutorial?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Something like this:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">There are many libraries and packages.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">You do not need to worry about them.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Here is hello world for a command line program:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">  ...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And for a gui program:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">  ...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And a minimal sample interoperating with C:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">   ...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And a minimal sample using Modula-3's RPC called "network objects":<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">   ...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">CM3 4.1 had some like this that were nice, presumably we have them.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> - Jay<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">----------------------------------------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:20:48 -0400<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: <a href="mailto:hendrik@topoi.pooq.com">hendrik@topoi.pooq.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: <a href="mailto:m3devel@elegosoft.com">m3devel@elegosoft.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [M3devel] package groups question<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:13:58AM -0400, <a href="mailto:hendrik@topoi.pooq.com">hendrik@topoi.pooq.com</a> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 04:05:46PM +0200, Olaf Wagner wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Quoting Tony Hosking :<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I don't care if future versions are not compilable with old cm3. But,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">vice versa, old versions should always be compilable with new cm3.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">My gut feelings run along the lines of what Randy has said. I do<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">think that the average user should accept std as the install, while<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">min is for power-users who know what they are doing. Does that jive<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">with other people's expectations?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sorry, I only now caught up with _some_ of the mails on the m3devel<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">list. Too much traffic for me to digest.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I gather there's been a long discussion that `min' is not really<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">useful as it is not enough to build the system. When we started<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the cm3 5 business many years ago with lots of uncompilable sources<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">from Farshad Nayeri, we invented the following sets of packages:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">all - obvious meaning. most packages did not compile at all.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">std - the set of packages shipped as compilable and usable with<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">every new release<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">core - a useful but small set of packages including everything to<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">bootstrap the compiler<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">boot - the minimal set to bootstrap the compiler<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">min - the minimal set useful for anyone (not wanting to compiler cm3)<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">As of today, std = all, and boot isn't used any more as far as a I see.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Is that becaouse no one ever boots the compiler any more? Or because<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">there are better ways to do it?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-- hendrik<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I guess I should mention that ebian is perfectly happy if one source<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">parckage (possibly the entire working cm3 system) generates multiple<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">binary packages.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-- hendrik<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><br><br><br>-- <br>Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH<br>               Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb�ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany<br>phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96  mobile: +49 177 2345 869  fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95<br>   <a href="http://www.elegosoft.com">http://www.elegosoft.com</a> | Gesch�ftsf�hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin<br>Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>