<html><head><base href="x-msg://1527/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium; ">On 11 Jan 2010, at 22:46, Jay K wrote:</span></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></span></div><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; ">True that:<br> <br>> (LAST(INTEGER) + 1) = FIRST (INTEGER)<br><br> <br>many folks would like to see fail before it gets to the "=".<br></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>WIthout overflow checking the addition will not fail.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; "> <br>The dilemna remains though because:<br> <br>> (LAST(INTEGER) + 1L) = FIRST (INTEGER)<br></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Actually, you mean VAL(LAST(INTEGER), LONGINT) + 1L</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; ">would not fail.<br><br>So, you can either look at it as they produce different values, or one succeeds and one fails.<br></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The point is that the type explicitly tells you whether you might be in trouble with overflow.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; ">Either way people don't like two different expressions doing two different things.<br>Again, converting an INTEGER to a LONGINT is one of the simplest things you can do.<br> <br>There something here about "transitivity" or "replacement":<br> <br>j2 := VAL(i1, LONGINT) + j3;<br>vs.<br>j2 := i1 + j3;<br></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is not referentially transparent. It requires innate knowledge about promotion rules to understand. That's what "not referentially transparent" means!</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; "> <br>pretty clearly have the same meaning.<br>The conversion is always trivial and always succeeds.<br>Does anyone really find it ambiguous?<br> <br> - Jay<br><br> <br>> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:27:23 +0000<br>> From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:dabenavidesd@yahoo.es">dabenavidesd@yahoo.es</a><br>> To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:m3devel@elegosoft.com">m3devel@elegosoft.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jay.krell@cornell.edu">jay.krell@cornell.edu</a><br>> Subject: Re: [M3devel] 64bit file sizes now?<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Hi all:<br>> forgive my ignorance of current discussion and implementation of LONGINT but I read something about arithmetic overflow; I didn't feel was reasonable even if the current implementation doesn't support arithmetic overflow checks, I must say we can't assume this expression:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> (LAST(INTEGER) + 1) = FIRST (INTEGER)<br>> This sort expression by itself should be catched at compile or run time as an execution error as any CPU would halt in such a case of division by zero, or at least a flag (an exception, etc).<br>> Nonetheless writing code in CM3 that exploit this restriction would be useless in M3 systems with overflow checking, so I really want to say that at least we can't assume M3 code to do this kind of "assumptions". It other words this is unsafe. I don't how far would people like to have checks on arithmetic expressions, what do you think of creating a compiler option to generate arithmetic overflow check code.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Please let me know if I'm wrong about this issue on current discussions.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> --- El lun, 11/1/10, Jay K <<a href="mailto:jay.krell@cornell.edu">jay.krell@cornell.edu</a>> escribió:<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > De: Jay K <<a href="mailto:jay.krell@cornell.edu">jay.krell@cornell.edu</a>><br>> > Asunto: [M3devel] 64bit file sizes now?<br>> > Para: "m3devel" <<a href="mailto:m3devel@elegosoft.com">m3devel@elegosoft.com</a>><br>> > Fecha: lunes, 11 de enero, 2010 22:02<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > So.. LONGINT as I understand will remain roughly as it was,<br>> > except VAL(expr, INTEGER) is how you convert expr to<br>> > INTEGER, instead of ORD(expr).<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > And this is already in place.<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > ?<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > So I should go ahead and update File.i3/Status/size and<br>> > Rd/Wr/Index/Seek/Length to all be LONGINT, "whatever<br>> > the consequences"? The consequences are roughly the<br>> > first diff I sent out, with the caveats that I used ORD()<br>> > instead of VAL(,INTEGER), and a few packages were left to<br>> > fix. It is mechanical and simple and predictable, just<br>> > tedious and ugly.<br>> > Most Rd/Wr users are limited to INTEGER "sizes"<br>> > anyway, but a few might gain capacity.<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > Classic simple example is the mklib and libdump code, they<br>> > read the entire file into memory and then deal with that.<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > I can send the diffs ahead of time, but there's really<br>> > no choices left as to what they'll look like, it is<br>> > forced by the limited capability of LONGINT.<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > Had they used LONGINT in the first place, of course,<br>> > there'd be no diff at this time, the ugliness would have<br>> > been builtin from the start.<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > - Jay<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></body></html>