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"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0000FF"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Gill Sans"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255); font-family: 'Gill Sans'; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255); font-family: 'Gill Sans'; ">Antony Hosking</span></span></font></font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Gill Sans"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Gill Sans'; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Gill Sans'; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>|<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Gill Sans'; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Gill Sans'; ">Associate Professor</span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Gill Sans'; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Gill Sans'; "> | Computer Science | Purdue University</span></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="GillSans-Light"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: GillSans-Light; 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<br><div><div>On 12 Jan 2010, at 01:42, Mika Nystrom wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Jay K writes:<br><blockquote type="cite">--_d6e9c415-767b-4d0a-bb6d-678d1cf506d1_<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">When do you forsee any non-IEEE 754 floating point environments coming into=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">existance?<br></blockquote><br>x86 (well, x87) is actually very much IEEE 754. It's almost the reference<br>implementation. Normal on x87 is 80-bit extended (all math in the x87 is<br>done in extended and then truncated by a store/load pair, if I remember<br>correctly). That's not a non-IEEE format. And I find it puzzling that<br>we don't expose the x87 native format in Modula-3 as EXTENDED.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That would also be a great project for someone to pick up. ;-) Just trying to encourage participation...</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>One common completely non-IEEE format is Cray floating point.<br><br>In any case writing IEEE floating point into the specification of a<br>systems language like Modula-3 seems completely wrong to me.<br>Who knows what tomorrow will bring?<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree that the spec should be neutral on the formats. Just as it is about INTEGER and ADDRESS.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br> Mika<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Or for that matter=2C simple efficient compatibility with all the C=2C C++=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=2C Java=2C Modula-3=2C JavaScript=2C etc. code in the world not being a fe=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ature of all CPUs=2C at least ones that have any floating point support? Or=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">any software floating point library?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For that matter=2C probably Perl and Python=2C but I'd have to check.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Chances are high they only expose 64bit float and nothing else.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The precisions and magnitudes of 32bit float and 64bit double are *really o=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ld* and in no apparent danger of going away. I think over 25 years and coun=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ting (consider the "SANE" environment of the Macintosh in 1984 and the simi=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">larly timed Apple 6502 package. I think Applesoft/Microsoft BASIC might hav=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">e used a different format=2C but the processor had no floating point suppor=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">t.) I think the only system with different formats is VAX. And Alpha suppor=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ts IEEE-754 and VAX. ?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I know=2C I know "never say never"=2C but sometimes....?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Certainly there are also 80bit formats on x86 and 68K.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Though x86 is moving away from this with SSE/SSE2.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And I think 128bit formats on PowerPC.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And something beyond 64bits on IA64 (Itanium).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">- Jay<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: <a href="mailto:jay.krell@cornell.edu">jay.krell@cornell.edu</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">CC: <a href="mailto:m3devel@elegosoft.com">m3devel@elegosoft.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [M3devel] Integer literals=20<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Date: Mon=2C 11 Jan 2010 21:46:03 -0800<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: <a href="mailto:mika@async.async.caltech.edu">mika@async.async.caltech.edu</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Jay K writes:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">One thing I've really struggled with over the introduction of LONGINT=<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the need for distinct literal forms. This strikes me as odd=3D2C sinc=<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">e<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">literals are really just ways of writing values=3D2C rather than stat=<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ing<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">anything about how they should be represented.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(Yes=3D2C I know that the REAL/LONGREAL/EXTENDED literals are all dis=<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">tinct=3D<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">=3D2C<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">but they really do have incompatible value representations).<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I agree=3D2C the need for distinctly typed literals is much greater fo=<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">r the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">floating types than the integer types=3D2C because they can't be viewe=<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">d<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">as having overlapping value sets in any reasonable way.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">=3D20<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Huh? This seems to me to be directly opposite of the truth.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">LONGREAL is a strict superset of REAL in what it can represent.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">There is *complete* overlap.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Am I really mistaken here?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Floating point is indeed very wierd=3D2C but it isn't this wierd.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Right?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">=3D20<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">=3D20<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- Jay<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Jay=2C I think if you have hardware that's strictly compliant with IEEE<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">754=2C you're right. Or at least there exists an interpretation of the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">values that have this property. I alluded earlier to the fact that<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Alpha represents single-precision by zeroing out the middle of the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">double-precision register (some of the mantissa and some of the exponent)=<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">However I'm sure there are systems for which this is not true. Is=20<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Modula-3 forbidden from being ported to such machines?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">=20<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Mika<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> =<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--_d6e9c415-767b-4d0a-bb6d-678d1cf506d1_<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><html><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><head><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><style><!--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">.hmmessage P<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">{<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">margin:0px=3B<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">padding:0px<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">}<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">body.hmmessage<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">{<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">font-size: 10pt=3B<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">font-family:Verdana<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">}<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--></style><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"></head><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><body class=3D'hmmessage'><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">When do you forsee any non-IEEE 754 floating point environments coming into=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">existance?<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Or for that matter=2C simple efficient compatibility with all the C=2C C++=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=2C Java=2C Modula-3=2C JavaScript=2C etc. =3Bcode in the world not bei=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ng a feature of all CPUs=2C at least ones that have any floating point supp=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ort? Or any software floating point library?<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For that matter=2C probably Perl and Python=2C but I'd have to check.<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Chances are high they only expose 64bit float and nothing else.<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The precisions and magnitudes of 32bit float and 64bit double are *really o=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ld* and in no apparent danger of going away. I think over 25 years and coun=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ting (consider the "SANE" environment of the Macintosh in 1984 and the simi=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">larly timed Apple 6502 package. I think Applesoft/Microsoft BASIC might hav=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">e used a different format=2C but the processor had no floating point suppor=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">t.) I think the only system with different formats is VAX. And Alpha suppor=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ts IEEE-754 and VAX. ?<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I know=2C I know "never say never"=2C but sometimes....?<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Certainly there are also 80bit formats on x86 and 68K.<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3BThough x86 is moving away from this =3Bwith SSE/SSE2.<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And I think 128bit formats on PowerPC.<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And something beyond 64bits on IA64 (Itanium).<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B<BR><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> =3B- Jay<BR> =3B<BR>>=3B To: jay.krell@cornell.edu<BR>>=3B CC:=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">m3devel@elegosoft.com<BR>>=3B Subject: Re: [M3devel] Integer literals <B=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">R>>=3B Date: Mon=2C 11 Jan 2010 21:46:03 -0800<BR>>=3B From: mika@async=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">.async.caltech.edu<BR>>=3B <BR>>=3B Jay K writes:<BR>>=3B >=3B<BR>&=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B One thing I've really struggled with over the intr=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">oduction of LONGINT is<BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B the need for distinct l=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">iteral forms. This strikes me as odd=3D2C since<BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=3B literals are really just ways of writing values=3D2C rather than statin=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">g<BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B anything about how they should be represente=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">d.<BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B (Yes=3D2C I know that the REAL/LONGREAL/EXT=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ENDED literals are all distinct=3D<BR>>=3B >=3B=3D2C<BR>>=3B >=3B&g=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">t=3B>=3B but they really do have incompatible value representations).<BR>=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>=3B >=3B>=3B<BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B I agree=3D2C the need for distin=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ctly typed literals is much greater for the<BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B floating=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">types than the integer types=3D2C because they can't be viewed<BR>>=3B &=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">gt=3B>=3B as having overlapping value sets in any reasonable way.<BR>>=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=3B >=3B<BR>>=3B >=3B=3D20<BR>>=3B >=3BHuh? This seems to me to b=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">e directly opposite of the truth.<BR>>=3B >=3BLONGREAL is a strict supe=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">rset of REAL in what it can represent.<BR>>=3B >=3BThere is *complete* =<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">overlap.<BR>>=3B >=3BAm I really mistaken here?<BR>>=3B >=3BFloatin=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">g point is indeed very wierd=3D2C but it isn't this wierd.<BR>>=3B >=3B=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Right?<BR>>=3B >=3B=3D20<BR>>=3B >=3B=3D20<BR>>=3B >=3B - Jay<B=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">R>>=3B <BR>>=3B Jay=2C I think if you have hardware that's strictly com=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">pliant with IEEE<BR>>=3B 754=2C you're right. Or at least there exists an=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">interpretation of the<BR>>=3B values that have this property. I alluded =<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">earlier to the fact that<BR>>=3B Alpha represents single-precision by zer=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">oing out the middle of the<BR>>=3B double-precision register (some of the=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">mantissa and some of the exponent).<BR>>=3B <BR>>=3B However I'm sure =<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">there are systems for which this is not true. Is <BR>>=3B Modula-3 forbid=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">den from being ported to such machines?<BR>>=3B <BR>>=3B Mika<BR> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> =<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> </body><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"></html>=<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--_d6e9c415-767b-4d0a-bb6d-678d1cf506d1_--<br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>