[M3devel] serial/Cygwin

Thu Dec 18 04:10:15 CET 2008

Do Cygwin users really care about all that stuff?

The point of using Modula-3 on Cygwin is to turn a yucky Windows
machine as close as possible into a friendly Unix environment...
not to use a bunch of Microsoft tools and libraries---I would have
thought that if you wanted to use Visual X-Y-Z then you wouldn't
be using Cygwin but would be using the native Windows environment?

So yes I find it a bit odd that the ancient PM3-Klagenfurt I still
occasionally use on Windows uses Windows threads and has its own
compiler back-end.  But it's kind of cool too and since it's not
really distinguishable from user-level threads and gcc I just think
"great" and get on with it.  In fact I'm not even sure it uses
the integrated back end now that I think about it.

I think what I'm saying is that almost no Cygwin users are terribly
interested in Microsoft interfaces, and I would bet most Cygwin
users aren't even aware of the existence of most Microsoft tools.
They (we) want as little to do with Windows as possible....

     Mika

Jay writes:
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>From: TonyTo: jay
>I would have thought of CygWin as a POSIX platform that just happens to hav=
>e Windows underneath.  Did we go round this roundabout before?
>
>
>
>
>
>It's more complicated than that.
>It isn't just one bit.
>There's a few factors=2C that people care more and less about.
>  GUI library  -- Win32 or X
>  thread library  -- pthreads or Win32 (or user threads)=20
>  file system path representation -- forward slashes or backward slashes   =
> This seems to be what people care most about -- to see forward slashes.
>  C compiler -- Visual C++ cl or Cygwin/GNU gcc
>  linker -- Visual C++ link or Cygwin/GNU ld=20
>  C runtime -- msvcr*.dll or cygwin1.dll=20
>  integrated backend or not     The integrated backend is way faster=2C but=
> doesn't yet support 64bit LONGINT.
>  which debugger/symbol format -- gdb/stabs or windbg/VisuaStudio/CodeView/=
>pdb
>Many of these factors are independent of each other=2C but not entirely.
>Compiler/linker directly lead to which debugger you can use=2C since  they =
>each use different formats.
>Well=2C you can use either debugger=2C but..without symbols..at least for s=
>ome modules.
>The Cygwin C runtime and Visual C++ linker disagreeon the name of __ImageBa=
>se=2C so you can't link to the Cygwin C runtime with theVisual C++ linker. =
>This is probably fixable at least in one combination withan alias (ability =
>to link Cygwin C runtime with Visual C++ linker=3B I don'tknow if Cygwin/GN=
>U ld understands aliases).
>I have also found that Cygwin produces incorrectimport .libs=2C perhaps the=
>ir linker somehow accepts them.
>=20
>Cygwin can program the Win32 GUI=2C but there is an issue with passing 8 by=
>te structs by value to __stdcall functions=2C the function name isn't mangl=
>ed correctly and linking fails.
>It is a bit of a combinatorial explosion.As the system stands=2C you can co=
>ntrol each bit in the config file=2C andmultiple combinations might work=2C=
> though I don't run any combinatorial tests.
>Three combinations are "identified" (named=2C spoken of) and have had some =
>development testing.NT386=2C NT386MINGNU (which I think should be called I3=
>86_MINGWIN)=2C and NT386GNU (which I think should be called I386_CYGWIN).
>Furthermore=2C you can imagine I386_INTERIX and I386_UWIN (I forget if that=
>'s the name).Interix and UWIN being two other very viable Posix layers on W=
>indows.Interix has been renamed a few times. It is called "SFU" -- services=
> for Unix=2C and I don't know=2Clike SUA -- services for unix applications=
>=2C and I think there's another name.It is a free download from Microsoft f=
>or x86 Windows < Vista=2C and is an optional component in Vista.It has its =
>pluses and minuses..not now.
>Anyway=2C in conversation here=2C one of the main things that people DO NOT=
> care aboutis which thread library is used.
>I believe it was asserted that PM3/NT386GNU did work=2C but that it might h=
>ave used Win32 threads.
>And maybe never had any GUI?
>I tried getting pthreads to work=2C but gave up debugging it.Perhaps a fres=
>h go at debugging it would pan out..but I'm really not too interested..
>I also have no interest in user threads. I believe they are never warranted=
>=2C excepton old systems that don't have kernel threads=2C like the hypothe=
>tical DJGPP port.
>I never brought up the issue of serial ports.I ASSUMED that almost nobody u=
>ses them=2C and anyone that does use them=2C doesn'tcare if they are implem=
>ented using Cygwin or Win32=2C as long as they work.
>I ASSUME there is no interop issue=2C like getting an int fd from the seria=
>l portand passing it to select() or close=2C or getting a Win32 HANDLE and =
>passing itto WaitForSingleObject=2C but I could be wrong here=2C certainly.
>I didn't look into if Cygwin is complete enough to implement them.I conside=
>r serial ports to be kind of out on the fringe..that it wouldn't be surpris=
>ing if Cygwin didn't implement them..but I didn't look. Heck=2C I tried bui=
>lding minicom on some non-Linux system(s) recently and it failed miserably.=
> I don't know if there is even much Posix portability option for serial por=
>t programming.
>Sure..I debug over a serial port=2C and lately have machines I can't get vi=
>deoout of (Itanium) or even seem to have no video hardware (Sun)=2C so I us=
>e a serial consolefor initial install (recent achievement :) still haven't =
>installed over network..)=2C but that's still imho a big step away from wri=
>ting code that uses the serial port.(And NetBSD doesn't support the local v=
>ideo on SGI O2=2C but I'm running OpenBSD there for now.)
>=20
>Anyway=2C there are a few ways to look at this issue.More and less trivial.
>A trivial view is:  Get the filtering to work. Build serial on all platform=
>s but Cygwin.   Or see if the Posix code will work.
>  I'd be surprised if the intersection of Cygwin x Modula-3 x serial port p=
>rogrammers is not 0=2C but could be. I actually don't think anyone is using=
> Cygwin x Modula-3.
>Another view is:  Get the Win32 serial code to work on Cygwin.  The code is=
> already there=2C and buildable=2C but building in a system that also build=
>s FilePosix.m3   breaks Modula-3 rules=2C you end up with two implementatio=
>ns of the File interface. What you want=2C I think=2C is FilePosix.m3 to pr=
>ovide the File interface=2C and FileWin32.m3 to provide   just its own spec=
>ific FileWin32 interface.  I think this is a simple transform of the code.
>Anyway=2C not a big deal...my tone here...is rushed=2C not rude=2C sorry.Ma=
>ybe I'll get the truncation I deserve. :)
> - Jay=
>
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>From: Tony<BR>To: jay<BR><BR>
><DIV>I would have thought of CygWin as a POSIX platform that just happens t=
>o have Windows underneath. &nbsp=3BDid we go round this roundabout before?<=
>/DIV>
><DIV><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B FONT: =
>12px Helvetica=3B TEXT-TRANSFORM: none=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B TEXT-IND=
>ENT: 0px=3B WHITE-SPACE: normal=3B LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B BORDER-COLLAPS=
>E: separate">
><DIV style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-span styl=
>e=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B FONT: 12px Helvetica=3B TEXT-TRANSFORM: none=3B C=
>OLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B TEXT-INDENT: 0px=3B WHITE-SPACE: normal=3B LETTER-S=
>PACING: normal=3B BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate"><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-s=
>pan style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B FONT: 12px Helvetica=3B TEXT-TRANSFORM: n=
>one=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B TEXT-INDENT: 0px=3B WHITE-SPACE: normal=3B =
>LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate"><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple=
>-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B FONT: 12px Helvetica=3B TEXT-TRAN=
>SFORM: none=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B TEXT-INDENT: 0px=3B WHITE-SPACE: no=
>rmal=3B LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate"><SPAN class=3D=
>EC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B FONT: 12px Helvetica=3B T=
>EXT-TRANSFORM: none=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B TEXT-INDENT: 0px=3B WHITE-S=
>PACE: normal=3B LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate"><SPAN =
>class=3DEC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B FONT: 12px Helvet=
>ica=3B TEXT-TRANSFORM: none=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B TEXT-INDENT: 0px=3B=
> WHITE-SPACE: normal=3B LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate=
>"><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B FONT: 12p=
>x Helvetica=3B TEXT-TRANSFORM: none=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B TEXT-INDENT=
>: 0px=3B WHITE-SPACE: normal=3B LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
>separate"><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B F=
>ONT: 12px Helvetica=3B TEXT-TRANSFORM: none=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B TEX=
>T-INDENT: 0px=3B WHITE-SPACE: normal=3B LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B BORDER-CO=
>LLAPSE: separate"><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPACING: =
>0px=3B FONT: 12px Helvetica=3B TEXT-TRANSFORM: none=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0=
>)=3B TEXT-INDENT: 0px=3B WHITE-SPACE: normal=3B LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B B=
>ORDER-COLLAPSE: separate">
><DIV><BR></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DI=
>V></SPAN></DIV>
><DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px=3B=
> FONT: 12px Helvetica=3B TEXT-TRANSFORM: none=3B COLOR: rgb(0=2C0=2C0)=3B T=
>EXT-INDENT: 0px=3B WHITE-SPACE: normal=3B LETTER-SPACING: normal=3B BORDER-=
>COLLAPSE: separate">
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>It's more complicated than that.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>It isn't just one bit.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>There's a few factors=2C that people care more and less about.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B GUI library&nbsp=3B -- Win32 or X</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B thread library&nbsp=3B -- pthreads or Win32 (or user threads)=
> </DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B file system path representation -- forward slashes or backwar=
>d slashes<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B This seems to be what people care mos=
>t about -- to see forward slashes.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B C compiler -- Visual C++ cl or Cygwin/GNU gcc</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B linker -- Visual C++ link or Cygwin/GNU ld </DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B C runtime -- msvcr*.dll or cygwin1.dll </DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B integrated backend or not <BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B The in=
>tegrated backend is way faster=2C but doesn't yet support 64bit LONGINT.</D=
>IV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B which debugger/symbol format&nbsp=3B-- gdb/stabs or windbg/Vi=
>suaStudio/CodeView/pdb</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Many of these factors are independent of each other=2C but not entirel=
>y.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Compiler/linker directly lead to which debugger you can use=2C since<B=
>R>&nbsp=3B they each use different formats.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Well=2C you can use either debugger=2C but..without symbols..at least =
>for some modules.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>The Cygwin C runtime and Visual C++ linker disagree<BR>on the name of =
>__ImageBase=2C so you can't link to the Cygwin C runtime with the<BR>Visual=
> C++ linker. This is probably fixable at least in one combination with<BR>a=
>n alias (ability to link Cygwin C runtime with Visual C++ linker=3B I don't=
><BR>know if Cygwin/GNU ld understands aliases).</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>I have also found that Cygwin produces incorrect<BR>import .libs=2C pe=
>rhaps their linker somehow accepts them.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>>&nbsp=3B</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>>Cygwin can program the Win32 GUI=2C but there is an issue with passing 8 b=
>yte structs by value to __stdcall functions=2C the function name isn't mang=
>led correctly and linking fails.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>It is a bit of a combinatorial explosion.<BR>As the system stands=2C y=
>ou can control each bit in the config file=2C and<BR>multiple combinations =
>might work=2C though I don't run any combinatorial tests.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Three combinations are "identified" (named=2C spoken of)&nbsp=3Band ha=
>ve had some development testing.<BR>NT386=2C NT386MINGNU (which I think sho=
>uld be called I386_MINGWIN)=2C and NT386GNU (which I think should be called=
> I386_CYGWIN).</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Furthermore=2C you can imagine I386_INTERIX and I386_UWIN (I forget if=
> that's the name).<BR>Interix and UWIN being two other very viable Posix la=
>yers on Windows.<BR>Interix has been renamed a few times. It is called "SFU=
>" -- services for Unix=2C and I don't know=2C<BR>like SUA -- services for u=
>nix applications=2C and I think there's another name.<BR>It is a free downl=
>oad from Microsoft for x86 Windows &lt=3B Vista=2C and is an optional compo=
>nent in Vista.<BR>It has its pluses and minuses..not now.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Anyway=2C in conversation here=2C one of the main things that people D=
>O NOT care about<BR>is which thread library is used.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>I believe it was asserted that PM3/NT386GNU did work=2C but that it mi=
>ght have used Win32 threads.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>>And maybe never had any GUI?</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>I tried getting pthreads to work=2C but gave up debugging it.<BR>Perha=
>ps a fresh go at debugging it would pan out..but I'm really not too interes=
>ted..</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>I also have no interest in user threads. I believe they are never warr=
>anted=2C except<BR>on old systems that don't have kernel threads=2C like th=
>e hypothetical DJGPP port.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>I never brought up the issue of serial ports.<BR>I ASSUMED that almost=
> nobody uses them=2C and anyone that does use them=2C doesn't<BR>care if th=
>ey are implemented using Cygwin or Win32=2C as long as they work.<BR></DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>>I ASSUME there is no interop issue=2C like getting an int fd from the seri=
>al port<BR>and passing it to select() or close=2C or getting a Win32 HANDLE=
> and passing it<BR>to WaitForSingleObject=2C but I could be wrong here=2C c=
>ertainly.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>I didn't look into if Cygwin is complete enough to implement them.<BR>=
>I consider serial ports to be kind of out on the fringe..that it wouldn't b=
>e surprising if Cygwin didn't implement them..but I didn't look. Heck=2C I =
>tried building minicom on some non-Linux system(s) recently and it failed m=
>iserably. I don't know if there is even much Posix portability option for s=
>erial port programming.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Sure..I debug over a serial port=2C and lately have machines I can't g=
>et video<BR>out of (Itanium) or even seem to have no video hardware (Sun)=
>=2C so I use a serial console<BR>for initial install (recent achievement :)=
> still haven't installed over network..)=2C but that's still imho a big ste=
>p away from writing code that uses the serial port.<BR>(And NetBSD doesn't =
>support the local video on SGI O2=2C but I'm running OpenBSD there for now.=
>)</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>>&nbsp=3B</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Anyway=2C there are a few ways to look at this issue.<BR>More and less=
> trivial.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>A trivial view is:<BR>&nbsp=3B Get the filtering to work. Build serial=
> on all platforms but Cygwin.<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B Or see if the Posix code =
>will work.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>>&nbsp=3B I'd be surprised if the intersection of Cygwin x Modula-3 x seria=
>l port programmers is not 0=2C but could be. I actually don't think anyone =
>is using Cygwin x Modula-3.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Another view is:<BR>&nbsp=3B Get the Win32 serial code to work on Cygw=
>in.<BR>&nbsp=3B The code is already there=2C and buildable=2C but building =
>in a system that also builds FilePosix.m3<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B breaks Modula=
>-3 rules=2C you end up with two implementations of the File interface.<BR>&=
>nbsp=3BWhat you want=2C I think=2C is FilePosix.m3 to provide the File inte=
>rface=2C and FileWin32.m3 to provide<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B just its own speci=
>fic FileWin32 interface.<BR>&nbsp=3B I think this is a simple transform of =
>the code.</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>Anyway=2C not a big deal...my tone here...is rushed=2C not rude=2C sor=
>ry.<BR>Maybe I'll get the truncation I deserve. :)</DIV>
><DIV class=3DEC_hmmessage style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"=
>><BR>&nbsp=3B- Jay</DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></body>
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