[M3devel] religion, philosophy, Posix vs. Win32

[Jay]

ok..well...some provision I guess eventually should be made for those who agree with you and Tony.
What will come first is something else. :)
 A system that is Win32 as much as possible, EXCEPT that it uses the gcc-based backend, and as, and ld, and maybe throws around some forward slashes here and there.
 
I weakly propose:
  NT386GNU be deleted
  and NT386MINGWIN (NT386MING? I386_MINGWIN? X86_MINGWIN?)
  and NT386CYGWIN (NT386CYG? I386_CYGWIN? X86_CYGWIN?)
 takes its place.
 
but not right now.
 
However, it still might be one target, and you edit the config file.
It depends on what people define as a "target" and what it means for two "different" things to be the same "target".
The same target can link with same target. To a huge extent, NT386 can link with NT386GNU.
Different targets get installed to different pkg directories.
 
SOLgnu and SOLsun might provide a similar set of questions/answers, not that I know anything about it. :)
 
Anyway, I'm in a practical mode now, so I'll stop rambling in email. :)
 
There's also the matter of X Windows or not...
 
 - Jay

> To: jayk123 at hotmail.com> CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com> Subject: Re: [M3devel] religion, philosophy, Posix vs. Win32 > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:40:17 -0800> From: mika at async.caltech.edu> > Jay,> > I don't know if this is completely responsive to your question, and> take it with a grain of salt because I have never programmed on a> "pure" Windows system (and God willing, I never shall).> > I expect the NT386GNU target, Cygwin, Windows-POSIX, whatever you> call it, to look as much as Unix "as possible." (Obviously not,> but as "reasonable".) The main things are (1) yes, /bin/sh, and> (2) Unix (POSIX?) libc---Modula-3 does a good job of covering up> the basic stuff so you don't need to worry about it for the most> part, but sometimes, just sometimes, you need to get, say, some> system information that doesn't have an existing M3 interface (say> the amount of free diskspace or something like that). Then you> should be able to call C code that is portable between Unix and> Windows.> > One thing that is bizarre about the old NT386GNU PM3 that doesn't> conform to the above description: it uses Windows Time.T. It's all> the more bizarre because Cygwin uses Unix time_t. (Time.Now and> time(3) are off by a couple of hundred years on NT386GNU, whereas> they are the same on all Unixes.) I am sure there are other things.> Oh yes, the open-file (default) locking semantics are different> too. Those two are actually the only differences that I noticed> in the programming environments.> > Mika> > Jay writes:> >--_d0659847-2f20-454a-9665-5df3b5ce2832_> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable> >> >The conclusion here is:> > Just try to convince me otherwise. :)> >> >The gist of the question is:> > Just what characteristics of "Posix" and "Win32" should "NT386GNU" have?> >> > Just what characteristics of "Posix" do people notice and like?> >You can't say "the whole thing". :)> >> >Restated:> >> >What is Posix? I don't mean, where is the standard document web site.> >I mean what is it TO YOU?> >> >Is it open/read/write/close?> >Is it fork?> >Is it sbrk?> > On these previous ones, they are interesting to many programmers,> > but Modula-3 already layers over all this, so these are unlikely defining> >characteristics here.> >> >Is it sh? Probably somewhat. But if have you sat in Cygwin sh much vs. cmd?> > It is annoying. Command line history is flaky. Paths are munged to say /cy=> >gdrive.> > You lose the critical F8 command line completion against history feature.> > You lose a lot of editing capability, but do gain some alternate possibly=> > "portable"> > similar.> >> >Is it Perl? No.> >Is it X Windows. I doubt it.> >Is it pthreads? Probably not.> > Or at least vtalarm? Maybe?> > Or setjmp/longjmp? Ok.> > Longjmp to the same buffer multiple times? Not likely.> > Longjmp to a place that has already returned? Not likely.> >All full paths starting with a forward slash? Maybe.> > Backward slash being a valid non-seperator path character? Maybe.> >> >Think about that last one.> >It is valid and occurs in Win32 code to treat forward slash and backward sl=> >ash the same.> >Some code does, some code does not.> >What if you just did that unconditionally, like even in Posix?> >What is the role of backward slash in Posix paths? It either just doesn't o=> >ccur,> >or is an escape character, or is a regular character. Something at a low le=> >vel> >could replace the backward slashes with forward slashes.> >> >I would like to change the code in m3-sys/cm3/m3path.m3 to treat backward s=> >lashes> >and forward slashes the same. Backward slashes just won't occur on Posix, r=> >ight?> >So far I have managed without this change, but not having it has bitten me => >a few times.> >I do have the analogous change to the Win32 path code in m3core.> >> >It is the redundant filenames libfoo.a instead of foo.lib and libfoo.so ins=> >tead of foo.so?> >Perhaps. This seems dumb, redundant to me. Why have prefixes and suffixes?> >Don't suffixes suffice?> >> >That all said, I remain convinced that a useful intermediate or probably en=> >dpoint> >is a toolset that targets Windows using cm3cg, ld, as, but otherwise looks => >like> >NT386 as much as possible. MAYBE alter the library names to libfoo.*.> >> >sh and make are needed for building cm3cg.> >I did use Cygwin for that. MinGWin sounds promising here too but I haven't => >tried.> >> > - Jay> >> >> >_________________________________________________________________> >Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.> >http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008=> >> >--_d0659847-2f20-454a-9665-5df3b5ce2832_> >Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable> >> ><html>> ><head>> ><style>> >.hmmessage P> >{> >margin:0px;> >padding:0px> >}> >body.hmmessage> >{> >FONT-SIZE: 10pt;> >FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma> >}> ></style>> ></head>> ><body class=3D'hmmessage'>The conclusion here is:<br> Just try to conv=> >ince me otherwise. :)<br><br>The gist of the question is:<br>  Just wh=> >at characteristics of "Posix" and "Win32" should "NT386GNU" have?<br><br>&n=> >bsp;Just what characteristics of "Posix" do people notice and like?<br>You => >can't say "the whole thing". :)<br><br>Restated:<br><br>What is Posix? I do=> >n't mean, where is the standard document web site.<br>I mean what is it TO => >YOU?<br><br>Is it open/read/write/close?<br>Is it fork?<br>Is it sbrk?<br>&=> >nbsp; On these previous ones, they are interesting to many programmers,<br>=> > but Modula-3 already layers over all this, so these are unlikely defi=> >ning<br>characteristics here.<br><br>Is it sh? Probably somewhat. But if ha=> >ve you sat in Cygwin sh much vs. cmd?<br> It is annoying. Command line=> > history is flaky. Paths are munged to say /cygdrive.<br> You lose the=> > critical F8 command line completion against history feature.<br>  You=> > lose a lot of editing capability, but do gain some alternate possibly "por=> >table"<br>  similar.<br><br>Is it Perl? No.<br>Is it X Windows. I doub=> >t it.<br>Is it pthreads? Probably not.<br>  Or at least vtalarm? Maybe=> >?<br>  Or setjmp/longjmp? Ok.<br>    Longjmp to the sam=> >e buffer multiple times? Not likely.<br>    Longjmp to a pla=> >ce that has already returned? Not likely.<br>All full paths starting with a=> > forward slash? Maybe.<br>  Backward slash being a valid non-seperator=> > path character? Maybe.<br><br>Think about that last one.<br>It is valid an=> >d occurs in Win32 code to treat forward slash and backward slash the same.<=> >br>Some code does, some code does not.<br>What if you just did that uncondi=> >tionally, like even in Posix?<br>What is the role of backward slash in Posi=> >x paths? It either just doesn't occur,<br>or is an escape character, or is => >a regular character. Something at a low level<br>could replace the backward=> > slashes with forward slashes.<br><br>I would like to change the code in m3=> >-sys/cm3/m3path.m3 to treat backward slashes<br>and forward slashes the sam=> >e. Backward slashes just won't occur on Posix, right?<br>So far I have mana=> >ged without this change, but not having it has bitten me a few times.<br>I => >do have the analogous change to the Win32 path code in m3core.<br><br>It is=> > the redundant filenames libfoo.a instead of foo.lib and libfoo.so instead => >of foo.so?<br>Perhaps. This seems dumb, redundant to me. Why have prefixes => >and suffixes?<br>Don't suffixes suffice?<br><br>That all said, I remain con=> >vinced that a useful intermediate or probably endpoint<br>is a toolset that=> > targets Windows using cm3cg, ld, as, but otherwise looks like<br>NT386 as => >much as possible. MAYBE alter the library names to libfoo.*.<br><br>sh and => >make are needed for building cm3cg.<br>I did use Cygwin for that. MinGWin s=> >ounds promising here too but I haven't tried.<br><br> - Jay<br><br><br=> > /><hr />Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. <a href=> >=3D'http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008=> >' target=3D'_new'>Get it now!</a></body>> ></html>=> >> >--_d0659847-2f20-454a-9665-5df3b5ce2832_--
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