[M3devel] [M3commit] CVS Update: cm3

[Olaf Wagner]

See below (still trying to catch up on M3 mails ;-)

Quoting Randy Coleburn <rcoleburn at scires.com>:

> Jay:
>
> First, I do want to say thanks for all you are doing for the cause   
> of Modula-3.  I don't think we say thanks enough for what others do   
> for us.  THANK YOU!
>
> I don't want to be perceived as "complaining", rather I am trying to  
>  voice my opinion in the hopes of influencing future direction.  Of   
> course, since I'm not doing the work, I can only make suggestions.
>
> In reading your post, you state that you deoptimized the native   
> implementation to make it match Cygwin.  Now, I'm not sure how much   
> effect this deoptimization has (maybe little), but it is clear that   
> in this case your implementation choice has favored the non-native   
> implementation over the native one.  IMO, tradeoffs of this type are  
>  not good.  If one is trying to convince someone to use Modula-3,  
> why  would you want to give them a "deoptimized" version just to  
> make it  easier to support a non-native environment---indeed, one  
> that they  may not even want/use?  If we have to make a trade-off, I  
> say favor  the native implementation always over the non-native one.
>
> What I'm trying to say here is that my experience as a software,   
> systems, and program engineer is that I've always been forced to   
> justify the cost/benefit of development tools for any project.  Many  
>  times I've had to go head to head with folks higher up in my own   
> organization or in the customer's organization whose preconceived   
> opinions were based on rumor and what they've heard rather than   
> actual factual hands-on experience.  I want to pick the best tool   
> for the job instead of being forced to pick an inferior tool because  
>  someone higher in the food chain demanded it based on faulty   
> preconceived opinion.  I like Modula-3.  I've found that I am more   
> productive using it.  But, if the compiler doesn't produce efficient  
>  code, I lose ground in arguing with the higher-ups.
>
> As for Python, I've never ventured to learn it, so for me, it is   
> something of a mystery.  But you miss the point.  I'm not arguing   
> the merits of Python, I'm just saying that anything Modula-3   
> requires on top of what is provided by the standard host platform   
> represents a potential obstacle or barrier to ease of   
> use/implementation.  It also sends the message that somehow Modula-3  
>  is not complete on its own, we have get Python just to install and   
> oh yes we need a C compiler and a linker and a ...?   IMO,   
> ultimately we need a turn-key download and install routine for   
> Modula-3 that just works, out-of-the-box.  If you give me an EXE, a   
> CMD, or a BAT, for the install, I can run it on Windows, but if you   
> give me an install routine that requires I first install something   
> else, e.g. Python, then that becomes a barrier to the folks who   
> don't know Python or already have it installed.
>
> Am I alone in this line of thought?  If so, I'll just be quiet.

No, you're not alone here. Ultimately, I think we should have
something that installs very easily without any preconditions, too.
But it is difficult to achieve and maintain this quality in an open
source project with so few volunteers. So I am afraid that there
will have to be some tradeoffs, but we should try to keep them
reasonably small.

Thus said, I think it is great that you are speaking up here, as great
as it is that Jay is doing this great amount of work for M3. It is
important that changes are reviewed and reasons are questioned for the
overall quality of the project. And as long as we are polite and argue
reasonably and not personally, this is only good for the project, too.

Thanks to all who are contributing to the M3 delevopment,

Olaf
-- 
Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH
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