From wagner at elegosoft.com Thu Jun 2 13:21:53 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 13:21:53 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] Installing CM3 on Xubuntu box In-Reply-To: <20110531180345.bbfad895.dukeofperl@ml1.net> References: <20110531180345.bbfad895.dukeofperl@ml1.net> Message-ID: <20110602132153.2hxog5zpekg0ckwg@mail.elegosoft.com> Quoting Duke Normandin : > Hi... > > I'm interested in test-driving a Modula-3 compiler, and perhaps > seriously learning the language. The closest I've come to Modula-3 > is Oberon-2 (oo2c; ETH LNO; and Mike Spivey's OBC) > > I just Dled cm3-src-all-5.8.6-REL.tgz > > From the extracted directory tree, I'm not too sure how to proceed > to build the compiler on my system. I see that you have 3 mailing > lists, but none seem appropriate for noob questions or "How to > install?" questions. Can you direct me to the appropriate newsgroup > or mailing list please. Much obliged! Sorry for the delay, I'm not at home currently and only read my mail now and then. To install CM3, please look at http://www.opencm3.net/, follow the Donwload link and read the installation instructions. If you encounter any problems, the appropriate mailing list is m3devel at elegosoft.com; you will find instructions on how to subscribe in the Resources area of the web presentation. Have fun with Modula-3, Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 3 22:00:13 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 20:00:13 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Message-ID: I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: old x86 laptops old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 ) Mac PowerPC laptops iMac G5 AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) Alphas SPARC RS/6000 SGI Fuel (2) Pretty much everything should go. Prices are very negotiable. It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required. There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS, ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc. I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 4 01:10:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 00:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 02:12:39 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:12:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 03:55:00 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:55:00 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Some work may have been done: > http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html > Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. We are well beyond that. Porting is vastly easier than it used to be. And it wasn't ever really so bad, just tedious and error prone. The primary work is now to test and debug, and often everything just works. Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining portability, besides performance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). Short of that, we did switch to get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads. And sigaltstack on some platforms. OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads, but for userthreads we still hack on the jmpbuf. Generating C would also help. Again I bring up the comparison: consider some random C or C++ program. That uses open/read/write/close. And either X Windows or Win32. And pthreads or Win32. How much work is it to port such a program? Basically none. Esp. if you factor in autoconf. That is where Modula-3 could/should be. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:12:39 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo; there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: old x86 laptops old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 ) Mac PowerPC laptops iMac G5 AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) Alphas SPARC RS/6000 SGI Fuel (2) Pretty much everything should go. Prices are very negotiable. It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required. There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS, ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc. I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 04:06:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:06:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <275325.71499.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and your long-waited wished and dreamed C backend code generator could be at hand: http://www.cminusminus.org/ http://getglue.com/topics/p/c http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~techrep/CS-98-19.ps.Z http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.123.8192 Hopefully some sort of draft of implementation exists for it. Would be nice since the code is still machine level and really portable, so that's even nicer! Have fun (this will make things for porting in Cell phones with Garbage collection support and so on). Also theoretical background is at hand (1), which is nicer again, since translation is smoothly and efficient and correct if semantics are respected. Thanks in advance 1.? Rabin, Daniel Eli.? Calculi for functional programming languages with assignment [Ph.D. dissertation].?United States -- Connecticut: Yale University; 1996. Available from: Dissertations & Theses: Full Text. Accessed June 4, 2011,?Publication Number: AAT 9636080. --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 19:12 Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 04:37:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:37:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <275325.71499.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <496328.68145.qm@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: also kind of like this approach since we could cross debugging programs easily, so again I really like much more this approach, and of course OpenCL and stuff coming its way soon will be helped by this too. Also adopting this to the old m3-tk olivetti backend code generator, could be a good reason to ask about it. I think there is a way of? debugging easily in the AST, or at least that's what they thought was their next step. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 21:06 Hi all: and your long-waited wished and dreamed C backend code generator could be at hand: http://www.cminusminus.org/ http://getglue.com/topics/p/c http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~techrep/CS-98-19.ps.Z http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.123.8192 Hopefully some sort of draft of implementation exists for it. Would be nice since the code is still machine level and really portable, so that's even nicer! Have fun (this will make things for porting in Cell phones with Garbage collection support and so on). Also theoretical background is at hand (1), which is nicer again, since translation is smoothly and efficient and correct if semantics are respected. Thanks in advance 1.? Rabin, Daniel Eli.? Calculi for functional programming languages with assignment [Ph.D. dissertation].?United States -- Connecticut: Yale University; 1996. Available from: Dissertations & Theses: Full Text. Accessed June 4, 2011,?Publication Number: AAT 9636080. --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 19:12 Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Sun Jun 5 04:48:53 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 19:48:53 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> ... >Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining portability=2C besides perf= >ormance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). >Short of that=2C we did switch to get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads= >. >And sigaltstack on some platforms. >OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads=2C but for userthreads we s= >till hack on the jmpbuf. ... Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... But I hope we keep the user threads implementation working for other reasons. It's far easier to add new concurrency mechanisms, and to control the overhead of threading, in the user threads implementation than in the pthreads one. I'm specifically thinking of stuff like programs with many threads (I mean millions of threads) or things like "goroutines". Handling either is not particularly difficult with user threads. Same with the stack overlapping tricks I was investigating a while back. Not sure if it's even possible with pthreads. Also consider CSP-like constructs. CSP channels can be emulated under pthreads (indeed one would probably do it with the plain Modula-3 threading constructs) but become very inefficient. Maybe M-on-N threading (or whatever it's called) would be necessary to make all this work best. User threads within pthreads. Is that difficult? Mika From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 05:08:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 04:08:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <810200.78882.qm@web29717.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I heard from a U. Delaware Professor that they were working in Open64 research compiler, the exact details I don't know, but they did have a machine super (symmetric) multiprocessor and he told they were trying with Microthreads (in his brief conference he said that Win nor Linux were amenable for that, that is, inefficient), when I asked his opinion about Pascal, he told preferred speed than anything else, sadly, but I myself prefer good compromise between speed (execution) and safety (and they are related truly, precisely, this was evident in the ARX project when the compiled code was double size for ARM compared to 32016 back in Acorn days before Olivetti, I think they compiled code for they SUN NeWS for it too which was as far as I know C plus classes or at least something like that). If I may say so, there are other attempt to make safe C, CCured is one, they inserted RT calls to detect RT otherwise failures, very much like SPIN did. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Mika Nystrom escribi?: > De: Mika Nystrom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. > Para: "Jay K" > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 21:48 > ... > >Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining > portability=2C besides perf= > >ormance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). > >Short of that=2C we did switch to > get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads= > >. > >And sigaltstack on some platforms. > >OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads=2C but > for userthreads we s= > >till hack on the jmpbuf. > ... > > Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... > > But I hope we keep the user threads implementation working > for other > reasons. It's far easier to add new concurrency > mechanisms, and to > control the overhead of threading, in the user threads > implementation > than in the pthreads one. > > I'm specifically thinking of stuff like programs with many > threads (I mean > millions of threads) or things like "goroutines". > Handling either is not > particularly difficult with user threads. Same with > the stack overlapping > tricks I was investigating a while back. Not sure if > it's even possible > with pthreads. Also consider CSP-like > constructs. CSP channels can be > emulated under pthreads (indeed one would probably do it > with the plain > Modula-3 threading constructs) but become very > inefficient. > > Maybe M-on-N threading (or whatever it's called) would be > necessary > to make all this work best. User threads within > pthreads. Is that > difficult? > > Mika > > From ttmrichter at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 04:19:13 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Message-ID: === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) 1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3 "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encountered compilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 05:28:07 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:28:07 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 18:16:58 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 19:38:55 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:38:55 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 20:23:38 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:23:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 #yiv1944419358 .yiv1944419358ExternalClass #yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1944419358 .yiv1944419358ExternalClass #yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 23:30:06 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:30:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6490.14871.qm@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and in the Acorn (later Olivetti) Research Center, they did actually quite of bit of the RT for the SUN NeWS, sort of interesting if you see the details behind it: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5274804/description.html If this things are old-fashioned I guess there is not too much good about current things, if I may say so :) : http://drdobbs.com/high-performance-computing/184415243 Ok, but if there is a good inter operable distributed platform is also a good idea, specially if the tools are ready: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.8345 Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 13:23 Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 #yiv1213456000 .yiv1213456000ExternalClass #yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1213456000 .yiv1213456000ExternalClass #yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 23:38:16 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 21:38:16 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Again, no. Modula-3 implementations have always depended on a C runtime. Always. Removing such a dependency is a tedious error-prone target-dependent task. And it buys you nothing. Please stop this crazy thinking. When there is a system that provides "m3core" from its "kernel", along with .i3 files, then you can cut the C runtime dependency for that target. Just for that target. Meanwhile, Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, Darwin, Cygwin, Interix, and hypothetical AIX, Irix, HP-UX, VMS targets will always have a C runtime dependency. Even on Win32/NT -- today we depend on very little, but on setjmp/longjmp. A good C backend would use __try/__except/__finally -- still depending on a C runtime. If you really want to cut the dependency, look perhaps at what was done for Go. Good luck. Keep in mind that e.g. Solaris and Apple don't allow for static linking the C runtime. Which somewhat implies that the kernel interface is private/undocumented/unstable. The C runtime is the blessed portability layer to target multiple revisions. I do find that a bit unfortunate. The Linux kernel does not implement pthreads. The C runtime does. And many more examples of varying thickness. Other ideas would be to generate Java or C#. C# is more viable since it is selectively unsafe. Java is probably not practical. > truly independent platform low level C-- No. Platform independence is mostly a matter of who all has done the porting for you already. Or how much of the work you have done yourself without depending on a lower level. Targeting a C compiler is far more compatible than anything else. In the realm of C--, LLVM is probably better. But again, C is much more portable. Of course, LLVM might be portable enough. C is also, again, more familiar. Would you rather maintain and debug code that interfaces with LLVM or code that generates C? Granted, both LLVM and the underlying C compiler will have bugs. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:23:38 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Mon Jun 6 00:01:25 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 18:01:25 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110605220125.GA7436@topoi.pooq.com> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > Hi all: > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) C-- is my favourite object code language, but it lacks support. As far as I know, it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe and that's about it. Several others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but that isn't really good enough. There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup on gmane. THe project looks moribund. I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- project, but I'm really not sure how to do it. It would probably be a lot of work. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 6 04:40:49 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 03:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <20110605220125.GA7436@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <430851.58066.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: well I think we would need a good C hacker (very good), I guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea to think in mobility I believe many others are working towards that, perhaps is time to us to do it. http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is client, client for that, ... If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be start to think what is better to start with, anyway I have not heard of something like mobile web development environment and so if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be in Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part of current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, fortunately there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in an University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert in arabic language (see: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue for interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you surely know that internet has support now for that kind of url, we may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as well, hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling is that they sort of like the language. Thanks in advance for all your comments on that --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > Hi all: > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to > understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific > implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having > C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of > that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low > level C-- is good to start with, you might see another > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was > ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even > further to interact with that language, us here just need > the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), > something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it lacks > support. As far as I know, > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe and > that's about it. Several > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but that > isn't really good enough. > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup on > gmane. THe project looks > moribund. > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- > project, but I'm really not > sure how to do it. > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > -- hendrik > > From hosking at cs.purdue.edu Tue Jun 7 03:00:24 2011 From: hosking at cs.purdue.edu (Tony Hosking) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 21:00:24 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: Hoping to look into this very soon... On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:48 PM, Mika Nystrom wrote: > Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 9 18:04:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 17:04:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <430851.58066.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <657794.25662.qm@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: it is that there is an actual compiler that using Modula-3 M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object code generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and mostly LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the wish of C is just out there :) Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate additional target and have fun: http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain infrastructure. ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the hardest part?) If you may please take a look, thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > Hi all: > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very good), I > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea to > think in mobility I believe many others are working towards > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is > client, client for that, ... > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be start to > think what is better to start with, anyway I have not heard > of something like mobile web development environment and so > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be in > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part of > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, fortunately > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in an > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert in > arabic language (see: > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue for > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you surely > know that internet has support now for that kind of url, we > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as well, > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling is > that they sort of like the language. > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > escribi?: > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > Hi all: > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to > > understand that we don't want the RT to depend on > specific > > implementations, but to be portable really and truly, > having > > C underneath makes just another thing makes us to > depend on > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), > instead of > > that, a clean low level but truly independent platform > low > > level C-- is good to start with, you might see > another > > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar > (Modula-3 was > > ported to it), just that their idea was to make this > even > > further to interact with that language, us here just > need > > the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't > deny > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is > C--), > > something I don't know it's quite platform dependent > in > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that > BTW). > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to > SPIN > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in > a > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it > lacks > > support. As far as I know, > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe > and > > that's about it. Several > > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but > that > > isn't really good enough. > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup > on > > gmane. THe project looks > > moribund. > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- > > project, but I'm really not > > sure how to do it. > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 10 17:42:12 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 16:42:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <657794.25662.qm@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <446702.36221.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate and low level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low level debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't know when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, available for their internal use). Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, I refer FYI one: http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf Similar to others that may be available Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if you may tell me whether m3cg currently generates private structures or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, this is because if the former or the later we then have a lot of common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's PhD thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below url, by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man page): http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 (and doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents that, but formalizes through a description layer, but given compiler comparison available documentation in [2], we could be able to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis proposes it (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another Module implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In fact XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both target machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 compiler (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which generates C: http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like Boyland thesis): http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language machine and adding some persistence capabilities (a functional language stack based virtual machine): http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz Thanks in advance [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of compiler components,? University of California, Berkeley, 1996. [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > Hi all: > it is that there is an actual compiler that using Modula-3 > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object code > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and mostly > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the wish of > C is just out there :) > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate additional > target and have fun: > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain > infrastructure. > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the hardest > part?) > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > Hi all: > > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very > good), I > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea > to > > think in mobility I believe many others are working > towards > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is > > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is > > client, client for that, ... > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be > start to > > think what is better to start with, anyway I have not > heard > > of something like mobile web development environment > and so > > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be > in > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part > of > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, > fortunately > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in > an > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert > in > > arabic language (see: > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue > for > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you > surely > > know that internet has support now for that kind of > url, we > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as > well, > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling > is > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > > Hi all: > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need > to > > > understand that we don't want the RT to depend > on > > specific > > > implementations, but to be portable really and > truly, > > having > > > C underneath makes just another thing makes us > to > > depend on > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), > > instead of > > > that, a clean low level but truly independent > platform > > low > > > level C-- is good to start with, you might see > > another > > > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar > > (Modula-3 was > > > ported to it), just that their idea was to make > this > > even > > > further to interact with that language, us here > just > > need > > > the portable low level interfaces same way (I > don't > > deny > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally > is > > C--), > > > something I don't know it's quite platform > dependent > > in > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say > that > > BTW). > > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C > idiom to > > SPIN > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same > in > > a > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it > > lacks > > > support. As far as I know, > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 > processoe > > and > > > that's about it. Several > > > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, > but > > that > > > isn't really good enough. > > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- > newsgroup > > on > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > moribund. > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the > C-- > > > project, but I'm really not > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 10 21:46:29 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 20:46:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <446702.36221.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <735889.66315.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and here it is (work in progress) in Modula-3 a JVM target compiler (maybe later another VM since UNSAFE is nop in JVM) to create another language (see for the later: http://xerxys.de/index.php?title=Discussion ) : http://www.xerxys.org/index.php?title=Xm3 So the all dream about low level code in Modula-3 is nice, is just closer each time I guess. I wouldn't be surprised they even know the ARX OS, since there they coded everything in Modula-2+, so it's believable (more than SPIN) was (they always run in protected mode, so, I guess this would prove that safe codes needs not to live necessarily in kernel, though SPIN was, but to protect itself from others clients). Anyway, ARX coded even C runtime, so, it's not that surprising they did that yet it's wonderful. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 10:42 > Hi all: > besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate and low > level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low level > debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't know > when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, > available for their internal use). > Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, I > refer FYI one: > http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf > Similar to others that may be available > > Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if you may > tell me whether m3cg currently generates private structures > or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, this is > because if the former or the later we then have a lot of > common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's PhD > thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below url, > by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man page): > > http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf > > Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 (and > doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents that, but > formalizes through a description layer, but given compiler > comparison available documentation in [2], we could be able > to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis proposes it > (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another Module > implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In fact > XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both target > machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 compiler > (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: > http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages > > Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which generates > C: > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz > > or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like > Boyland thesis): > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf > > Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language machine and > adding some persistence capabilities (a functional language > stack based virtual machine): > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz > > > Thanks in advance > > [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of compiler > components,? University of California, Berkeley, 1996. > > [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 > > > > --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > > Hi all: > > it is that there is an actual compiler that using > Modula-3 > > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object > code > > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and > mostly > > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the > wish of > > C is just out there :) > > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate > additional > > target and have fun: > > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and > > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain > > infrastructure. > > > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code > > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the > hardest > > part?) > > > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > > Hi all: > > > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very > > good), I > > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good > idea > > to > > > think in mobility I believe many others are > working > > towards > > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think > idea is > > > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile > web is > > > client, client for that, ... > > > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may > be > > start to > > > think what is better to start with, anyway I have > not > > heard > > > of something like mobile web development > environment > > and so > > > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort > would be > > in > > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that > part > > of > > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, > > fortunately > > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and > Professor in > > an > > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's > expert > > in > > > arabic language (see: > > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > > ), it might that she can give us some help or a > clue > > for > > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since > you > > surely > > > know that internet has support now for that kind > of > > url, we > > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends > as > > well, > > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My > feeling > > is > > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 > from > > > trunk. > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > > > Hi all: > > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would > need > > to > > > > understand that we don't want the RT to > depend > > on > > > specific > > > > implementations, but to be portable really > and > > truly, > > > having > > > > C underneath makes just another thing makes > us > > to > > > depend on > > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best > idea), > > > instead of > > > > that, a clean low level but truly > independent > > platform > > > low > > > > level C-- is good to start with, you might > see > > > another > > > > implementation of this idea in portable > Cedar > > > (Modula-3 was > > > > ported to it), just that their idea was to > make > > this > > > even > > > > further to interact with that language, us > here > > just > > > need > > > > the portable low level interfaces same way > (I > > don't > > > deny > > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe > ideally > > is > > > C--), > > > > something I don't know it's quite platform > > dependent > > > in > > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can > say > > that > > > BTW). > > > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal > C > > idiom to > > > SPIN > > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the > same > > in > > > a > > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, > but it > > > lacks > > > > support. As far as I know, > > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 > > processoe > > > and > > > > that's about it. Several > > > > others have been mentioned as being nearly > ready, > > but > > > that > > > > isn't really good enough. > > > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- > > newsgroup > > > on > > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > > moribund. > > > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life > into the > > C-- > > > > project, but I'm really not > > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 11 04:51:24 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 03:51:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <735889.66315.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <560878.1847.qm@web29710.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I wonder how hard would be to evolve current JVM to Java jigsaw modularity system, it would be handy if not before we can support them, besides having such separate compilation support we could even re target the system easier than before, anyway it still lacks time, Java is through its process to do it, then other tools, static and dynamic I guess will need to be updated, ESC/Java, even before that if we may get somehow their main test suite would be wonderful to test whether we could support them and compare their results on their own ones. If that's the case we can give it a try to support them if really are interested in that. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 14:46 > Hi all: > and here it is (work in progress) in Modula-3 a JVM target > compiler (maybe later another VM since UNSAFE is nop in JVM) > to create another language (see for the later: > http://xerxys.de/index.php?title=Discussion > > ) : > http://www.xerxys.org/index.php?title=Xm3 > > So the all dream about low level code in Modula-3 is nice, > is just closer each time I guess. > > I wouldn't be surprised they even know the ARX OS, since > there they coded everything in Modula-2+, so it's believable > (more than SPIN) was (they always run in protected mode, so, > I guess this would prove that safe codes needs not to live > necessarily in kernel, though SPIN was, but to protect > itself from others clients). Anyway, ARX coded even C > runtime, so, it's not that surprising they did that yet it's > wonderful. > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 10:42 > > Hi all: > > besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate > and low > > level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low > level > > debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't > know > > when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, > > available for their internal use). > > Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, > I > > refer FYI one: > > http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf > > Similar to others that may be available > > > > Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if > you may > > tell me whether m3cg currently generates private > structures > > or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, > this is > > because if the former or the later we then have a lot > of > > common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's > PhD > > thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below > url, > > by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man > page): > > > > http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf > > > > Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 > (and > > doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents > that, but > > formalizes through a description layer, but given > compiler > > comparison available documentation in [2], we could be > able > > to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis > proposes it > > (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another > Module > > implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In > fact > > XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both > target > > machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 > compiler > > (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: > > http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages > > > > Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which > generates > > C: > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz > > > > or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like > > Boyland thesis): > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf > > > > Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language > machine and > > adding some persistence capabilities (a functional > language > > stack based virtual machine): > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of > compiler > > components,? University of California, Berkeley, > 1996. > > > > [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 > > > > > > > > --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > > > Hi all: > > > it is that there is an actual compiler that > using > > Modula-3 > > > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to > object > > code > > > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure > and > > mostly > > > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So > the > > wish of > > > C is just out there :) > > > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate > > additional > > > target and have fun: > > > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > > > > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining > and > > > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool > chain > > > infrastructure. > > > > > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > > > > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > > > > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM > code > > > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps > the > > hardest > > > part?) > > > > > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides > D. > > > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 > from > > > trunk. > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > > > Hi all: > > > > well I think we would need a good C hacker > (very > > > good), I > > > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is > good > > idea > > > to > > > > think in mobility I believe many others are > > working > > > towards > > > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I > think > > idea is > > > > recycled here, every word I heard about > mobile > > web is > > > > client, client for that, ... > > > > > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we > may > > be > > > start to > > > > think what is better to start with, anyway I > have > > not > > > heard > > > > of something like mobile web development > > environment > > > and so > > > > if they like idea why not? The biggest > effort > > would be > > > in > > > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix > that > > part > > > of > > > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in > m3core, > > > fortunately > > > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and > > Professor in > > > an > > > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, > she's > > expert > > > in > > > > arabic language (see: > > > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > > > ), it might that she can give us some help > or a > > clue > > > for > > > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all > since > > you > > > surely > > > > know that internet has support now for that > kind > > of > > > url, we > > > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian > friends > > as > > > well, > > > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. > My > > feeling > > > is > > > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on > that > > > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building > CM3 > > from > > > > trunk. > > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all: > > > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you > would > > need > > > to > > > > > understand that we don't want the RT > to > > depend > > > on > > > > specific > > > > > implementations, but to be portable > really > > and > > > truly, > > > > having > > > > > C underneath makes just another thing > makes > > us > > > to > > > > depend on > > > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the > best > > idea), > > > > instead of > > > > > that, a clean low level but truly > > independent > > > platform > > > > low > > > > > level C-- is good to start with, you > might > > see > > > > another > > > > > implementation of this idea in > portable > > Cedar > > > > (Modula-3 was > > > > > ported to it), just that their idea was > to > > make > > > this > > > > even > > > > > further to interact with that language, > us > > here > > > just > > > > need > > > > > the portable low level interfaces same > way > > (I > > > don't > > > > deny > > > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe > > ideally > > > is > > > > C--), > > > > > something I don't know it's quite > platform > > > dependent > > > > in > > > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who > can > > say > > > that > > > > BTW). > > > > > Even SPIN did transfered their > ideal > > C > > > idiom to > > > > SPIN > > > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later > did the > > same > > > in > > > > a > > > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in > C#) > > > > > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code > language, > > but it > > > > lacks > > > > > support. As far as I know, > > > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit > x86 > > > processoe > > > > and > > > > > that's about it. Several > > > > > others have been mentioned as being > nearly > > ready, > > > but > > > > that > > > > > isn't really good enough. > > > > > There hasn't been much activity on the > C-- > > > newsgroup > > > > on > > > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > > > moribund. > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing > life > > into the > > > C-- > > > > > project, but I'm really not > > > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:07:51 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:07:51 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in order to further illustrate my point, here are some examples: modula3 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula3 modula2 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula2&aq=f surprisingly, modula2 has more information available! perhaps a short video explaining the motivation behind modula, and why to use it instead of other languages, would be a useful asset, don't you guys think so? 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. > > anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if anyone > has a link for modula videotutorials? > > if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 > videotutorials? > > the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, but > could be served from it. > > if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear > many doubts. > > I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything interesting, > or relevant for that matter. > > I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, > but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires > wizardry to work). > then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, > > nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I > need. > > if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna > have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), > > but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. > > > Any Ideas? > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:10:51 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:10:51 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: as silly as this might appear, this is what I think modula3 needs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqph8VGCi40 do you guys think this is a good idea? 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > in order to further illustrate my point, here are some examples: > > > modula3 > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula3 > > modula2 > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula2&aq=f > > surprisingly, > modula2 has more information available! > > perhaps a short video explaining the motivation behind modula, and why to > use it instead of other languages, would be a useful asset, don't you guys > think so? > > > 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > >> hi everyone, this is my first post. >> >> since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. >> >> it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. >> on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. >> >> anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if >> anyone has a link for modula videotutorials? >> >> if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 >> videotutorials? >> >> the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, >> but could be served from it. >> >> if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear >> many doubts. >> >> I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything >> interesting, or relevant for that matter. >> >> I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, >> but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires >> wizardry to work). >> then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, >> >> nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I >> need. >> >> if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna >> have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), >> >> but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. >> >> >> Any Ideas? >> >> >> -- >> 312-444-2124 >> 301-578-7884 >> >> >> > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:04:36 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:04:36 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Message-ID: hi everyone, this is my first post. since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if anyone has a link for modula videotutorials? if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 videotutorials? the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, but could be served from it. if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear many doubts. I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything interesting, or relevant for that matter. I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires wizardry to work). then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I need. if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. Any Ideas? -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Sat Jun 11 23:32:17 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:32:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > I teach CS at a class, and I'm?interested?in using it as a teaching tool, but given its current state (hard to install, > documentation terse, requires wizardry to work). > then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, > > nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I need. > > if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a > spanish-speaking audience), I taught Modula-3 for mathematicians some years ago and prepared a script for that lecture in German. I do not know, whether this helps you. I could send you the LaTeX files. However I found that it is not a good idea to follow this script closely in a lecture, nonetheless I think it is good for reference. I think that a lot of practicing is better. And of course simple installation and certainly a video tutorial would help. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sun Jun 12 03:38:46 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:38:46 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 04:04:36PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. Interesting, there's a .deb for AMD64 (which seems to be 5.8.6), but not for LINUXLIBC6, the 32-bit Intel platform (where there are .tgz's for 5.8.5). So if yout system is 32-but, you'll have to go the .tgz route. See http://www.opencm3.net/releng/download.html -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 12 04:39:12 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 02:39:12 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> References: , <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: It's there. http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb - Jay > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:38:46 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 04:04:36PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. > > Interesting, there's a .deb for AMD64 (which seems to be 5.8.6), but not > for LINUXLIBC6, the 32-bit Intel platform (where there are .tgz's for > 5.8.5). So if yout system is 32-but, you'll have to go the .tgz route. > > See http://www.opencm3.net/releng/download.html > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Wed Jun 15 21:28:35 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the postgres path. From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 21:45:16 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:45:16 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , Message-ID: Remove postgres from the system_libs and/or system_liborder in the config file, if you don't have postgres. And then the postgres package should check for existance in system_libs/system_liborder and do nothing if not present. It might not currently. But this pattern is used some and works somewhat reasonably, but not perfectly. If you later do install postgres, you get to go back and reedit the config file -- not good. Imagine what the automation looks like -- the order you install packages should not affect the outcome -- so such automatic steps have to be rerun whenever anything is installed, or some optimized form of that. Surely some package systems have addressed this, but we don't interoperate with them, it's non-trivial and platform-dependent work... Besides that, there's a certain dumbness. Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost nothing -- just the headers and a list of symbols in libfoo.so, not the actual code for libfoo.so. That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewhere. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:28:35 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > > > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? > > It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres > bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the > postgres path. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 21:49:26 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:49:26 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: hello everyone. this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: do you want postgress integration (optional)? >no if( YES ) please provide the path else you have chosen not to integrate at this point. if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, http://example.com/instructions end if instead of: do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? >nope ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice addition to the .deb also chaning the default so that it actually points where a recent postgress installation is, would be nice as well, but I guess this is too much trouble, for a .deb file that everyone should know how to crack-open, edit, and then run without a problem, I mean, how many lines of code is it anyway? 2011/6/15 Henning Thielemann > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional >> component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? >> > > It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres > bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the > postgres path. > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Wed Jun 15 22:08:55 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > addition to the .deb Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 22:17:11 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:17:11 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , , <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 22:25:37 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:25:37 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL. deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K > I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- > even if some of what it installs won't work. > It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. > postgres and where > editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query > what the config file did. > > Something seems off here. > > > - Jay > > > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > > > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > > addition to the .deb > > > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 15 22:31:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:31:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <765309.11579.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think in that way we could make room for the other (newer) implementation of it, since, what is the extra cost associated with linking to another example driver programs or a simple example more, normally a sort of good example to stress test to see whether the implementation is working or not. Actually the data base libraries are located in the usual path in that kind of systems, and in others it might not be the case but still a good chance is that you can still grab it and install it in the same root directory so it can't be that hard, anyways a real independent platform DBMS could be a terrific project for Modula-3, but whose are gonna make them. I know for instance ARX OS had a DB OS support directly files, "cabinets" and sequences of data as primitives,, may be something like the ML/SQL, you know what I mean, a way to? start to work in databases without too much trouble,? I think there existis, OO DBMS,? OO DBPL, and Structured? DB MS, but nothing like that, perhaps some problem may ARX have had else (relational). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:25 just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 15 23:26:37 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:26:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <765309.11579.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <146407.43186.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: in this regard the original OS/400 was a bit of Modula-2 + plus some ad-hoc extensions (and then rewrited in another language), in fact they studied another one Modula-90K developed at the Moscow Data Processing Center. And if it does matter the PL-SQL has an DIANA/Ada based ADT intermediate code middle end. If they matter to optimize that thing it is perhaps good to think in some adaptation layer with m3tk to be compatible at the intermediate level, see: http://wiki.oracle.com/page/PL%2FSQL If it matter anyway I think there should be some patents already about their ?-code VM, if not we could either look at their AS/400, sort of making in some sense compatible, at least at the language level, that could be awesome. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" , "felipe valdez" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:31 Hi all: I think in that way we could make room for the other (newer) implementation of it, since, what is the extra cost associated with linking to another example driver programs or a simple example more, normally a sort of good example to stress test to see whether the implementation is working or not. Actually the data base libraries are located in the usual path in that kind of systems, and in others it might not be the case but still a good chance is that you can still grab it and install it in the same root directory so it can't be that hard, anyways a real independent platform DBMS could be a terrific project for Modula-3, but whose are gonna make them. I know for instance ARX OS had a DB OS support directly files, "cabinets" and sequences of data as primitives,, may be something like the ML/SQL, you know what I mean, a way to? start to work in databases without too much trouble,? I think there existis, OO DBMS,? OO DBPL, and Structured? DB MS, but nothing like that, perhaps some problem may ARX have had else (relational). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:25 just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Wed Jun 15 23:39:33 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > hello everyone. > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > work, > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > >no > if( YES ) > please provide the path > else > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > http://example.com/instructions > end if > > instead of: > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > >nope > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection with postgress be a separate packate, called something like modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for modula3. The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would be appropriate. -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 23:52:01 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:52:01 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , Message-ID: > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > do you want postgress integration (optional)? I don't want setup to stop and ask me any questions. For multiple reasons: it might not know the answer, my answer might change later in time, it slows things down, the answer shouldn't be difficult for the setup to determine itself, but, that last point is what I claim is platform-dependent.. - Jay From: felipevaldez at gmail.com Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:49:26 -0500 To: lemming at henning-thielemann.de CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 hello everyone. this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: do you want postgress integration (optional)? >noif( YES ) please provide the pathelse you have chosen not to integrate at this point. if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, http://example.com/instructions end if instead of: do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component?>nopeok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice addition to the .deb also chaning the default so that it actually points where a recent postgress installation is, would be nice as well, but I guess this is too much trouble, for a .deb file that everyone should know how to crack-open, edit, and then run without a problem, I mean, how many lines of code is it anyway? 2011/6/15 Henning Thielemann On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the postgres path. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 23:59:23 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:59:23 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , , <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 00:47:44 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. ?? And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. ?- Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Thu Jun 16 00:51:21 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:51:21 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Still -- I want one "Modula-3" .deb per target. More than that is more for some of us to learn to create, more for some of us to learn to use, and more for our potential users to be confused by. Sure, our picky/advanced users will complain that our packaging is too monolithic. I guess, really, a real concern, is if we want to get packages/ports accepted and maintained and regularly rebuilt by distribution maintainers, for that we might need multiple packages. As well, you break things up when they become "too large". Is cm3? Anyway..none of this is a big deal imho. As long as the .deb works w/o postgres installed. - Jay Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 01:10:18 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 00:10:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <245856.94582.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: yes, it seems reasonable, but in cross-development environment, the options are too many, what is the situation respect of that,? I mean to compile for "optional" Scale-C from M3CG and to m3cc in Gcc and friends (PathScale, etc) either M3CG or so it would be wonderful to directly compile and link with just additional C compiler-linker if so or if so C-- assembler. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 17:51 Still -- I want one "Modula-3" .deb per target. More than that is more for some of us to learn to create, more for some of us to learn to use, and more for our potential users to be confused by. Sure, our picky/advanced users will complain that our packaging is too monolithic. I guess, really, a real concern, is if we want to get packages/ports accepted and maintained and regularly rebuilt by distribution maintainers, for that we might need multiple packages. As well, you break things up when they become "too large". Is cm3? Anyway..none of this is a big deal imho. As long as the .deb works w/o postgres installed. ?- Jay Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 #yiv1264870707 .yiv1264870707ExternalClass #yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295 .yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1264870707 .yiv1264870707ExternalClass #yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295 .yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. ?? And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. ?- Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Thu Jun 16 08:01:26 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:01:26 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <20110616060126.CE0721A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Furthermore, there might be problems with code that use postgres. I use it myself (a lot), and I'm not sure where I got the bindings from (they look similar but not identical to what I see in cm3). While it is true that the UNSAFE keyword that introduces PQ.i3 could be taken as license to do all sorts of bad things, there's one particularly bad thing that is far from obvious. It is critical to call Scheduler.DisableSwitching before anything that calls malloc under *some* user threading implementations. (I've never seen a problem on FreeBSD4, but it causes huge problems on AMD64_LINUX.) At the very least there ought to be a comment about this in PQ.i3. Does anyone use this interface and would care to comment? This brings to mind Jay's idea of disabling switching whenever calling an EXTERNAL function. I think this is too big a sledgehammer but something along these lines probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps making it the default but overridable somehow? If it can be done in a backward-compatible way in the pragma itself that might be best.. <*EXTERNAL*><*CLEAN*> but hmm PM3 probably would choke on additional pragmas... Mika Henning Thielemann writes: > >On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > >> is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrate >d with cm3? > >It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres >bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the >postgres path. From mika at async.caltech.edu Thu Jun 16 08:17:59 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:17:59 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , Message-ID: <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Jay K writes: ... >Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. >Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost not= >hing -- just the headers and >a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual code for libfoo.so. >That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewher= >e. ... SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only the .a/.so, the .i3 files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 started shipping the sources, not sure why. Mika From wagner at elegosoft.com Thu Jun 16 12:14:43 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:14:43 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting Mika Nystrom : > Jay K writes: > ... >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost not= >> hing -- just the headers and >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual code for libfoo.so. >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewher= >> e. > ... > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only the .a/.so, the .i3 > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 started shipping the sources, > not sure why. I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and referenced source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. I don't really see how that is related to linking against external libraries though. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 16:43:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com> Message-ID: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > De: Olaf Wagner > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > Jay K writes: > > ... > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > ought to require almost not= > >> hing -- just the headers and > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > code for libfoo.so. > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > works. But maybe not elsewher= > >> e. > > ... > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > started shipping the sources, > > not sure why. > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > referenced > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > external > libraries though. > > Olaf > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > Berlin, Germany > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > http://www.elegosoft.com | > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > From jay.krell at cornell.edu Thu Jun 16 20:27:09 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:27:09 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com>, <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 21:34:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: ?/cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) ?main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ?..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu Jun 16 22:29:42 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:29:42 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110616202942.GA18822@topoi.pooq.com> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 06:27:09PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. Which is why Debian would make the postgres wrapper a separate package, which would depend on potgres. -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 17 00:10:04 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:10:04 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 17 01:11:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. ? (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) ? Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. ?- Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 #yiv1235405760 .yiv1235405760ExternalClass #yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033 .yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1235405760 .yiv1235405760ExternalClass #yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033 .yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: ?/cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) ?main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ?..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 17 01:26:45 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 19:52:24 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:52:24 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > To: , m3devel , Olaf > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs > > You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. > /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? > Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. > Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. > There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the > executable. > All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. > I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. > But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. > > > - Jay > > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to > was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not > really Modula-3) might be available. > > CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet > them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious > if you want to link other libs you might want another model of > pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent > procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup > (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that > is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) > sense if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" < > wagner at elegosoft.com> > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 > > > > > > Daniel, I don't understand you. > We have pretty good support for cross builds. > However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are > often not so easy to build/setup. > We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can > set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. > If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is > easy and minor. > We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. > > Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. > And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. > Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able > to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 > -target=foo,bar. > > > > cm3 knows about "all" targets. > It knows very little about any target, really. > But some. > I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. > This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to > configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. > (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all > targets at once.) > Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet > another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. > > > Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. > There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. > It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. > > > - Jay > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; > wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like > say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible > targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some > others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) > as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. > Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar > ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the > cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could > somehow get into play. > Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, > but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" < > wagner at elegosoft.com> > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 > > > > > > rambly... > > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the > start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres > wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, > not for installing anything. > > On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I > think that was an accident. > The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. > > As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at > doing the very little it does. > And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly > tend to be installed, so that > the probing > around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a > variety of places. > > Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), > user might still > manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. > > Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited > upon install. > AND to that end, there should be a better separation between > simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content > and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the > possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited > > > By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: > > /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick > some extension) > /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) > > main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, > in some order > > > > oops but there I went making things modular! :) > > > ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. > > The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel > files that include > other shared and "gnarlier" files. > > It takes merely like > > SYSTEM_LIBS = ... > > in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. > > We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. > > But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, > AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. > rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. > > ..Jay > > > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > Hi all: > > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC > the vesta CM > system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for > local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides > the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests > whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, > however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another > experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was > Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in > Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many > others obviously more critical than it self. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner > escribi?: > > > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > > ... > > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > > ought to require almost not= > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > > >> e. > > > > ... > > > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like > this: m3ship would ship only > > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > > started shipping the sources, > > > > not sure why. > > > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > > referenced > > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > > external > > > libraries though. > > > > > > Olaf > > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > > Berlin, Germany > > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht > Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110616/8f0ac803/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 21:08:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:08:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 21:50:22 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:50:22 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Hi all: > if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you > save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". > Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll > back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since > their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with > time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a > file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! > BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? > I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. > Thanks in advance > > --- El *lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez * escribi?: > > > De: felipe valdez > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 > > > I also think this is a non- obvious problem. > > in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and > indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in > ubuntu? > > what about: > > $ which postgres > > does that yield good results? > > > > 2011/6/17 > > > > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 > From: Jay K > > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > To: >, > m3devel >, > Olaf > > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs > > You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. > /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? > Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. > Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. > There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the > executable. > All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. > I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. > But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. > > > - Jay > > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com ; > jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to > was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not > really Modula-3) might be available. > > CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet > them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious > if you want to link other libs you might want another model of > pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent > procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup > (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that > is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) > sense if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K > > escribi?: > > De: Jay K > > > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es , > "m3devel" >, > "Olaf" > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 > > > > > > Daniel, I don't understand you. > We have pretty good support for cross builds. > However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are > often not so easy to build/setup. > We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can > set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. > If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is > easy and minor. > We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. > > Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. > And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. > Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able > to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 > -target=foo,bar. > > > > cm3 knows about "all" targets. > It knows very little about any target, really. > But some. > I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. > This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to > configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. > (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all > targets at once.) > Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet > another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. > > > Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. > There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. > It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. > > > - Jay > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com ; > jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like > say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible > targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some > others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) > as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. > Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar > ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the > cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could > somehow get into play. > Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but > it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K > > escribi?: > > De: Jay K > > > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es , > "m3devel" >, > "Olaf" > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 > > > > > > rambly... > > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the > start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres > wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, > not for installing anything. > > On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I > think that was an accident. > The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. > > As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at > doing the very little it does. > And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly > tend to be installed, so that > the probing > around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a > variety of places. > > Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), > user might still > manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. > > Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited > upon install. > AND to that end, there should be a better separation between > simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content > and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the > possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited > > > By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: > > /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some > extension) > /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) > > main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, > in some order > > > > oops but there I went making things modular! :) > > > ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. > > The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel > files that include > other shared and "gnarlier" files. > > It takes merely like > > SYSTEM_LIBS = ... > > in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. > > We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. > > But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, > AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. > rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. > > ..Jay > > > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > Hi all: > > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC > the vesta CM > system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for > local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides > the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests > whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, > however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another > experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was > Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in > Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many > others obviously more critical than it self. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > > Quoting Mika Nystrom > >: > > > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > > ... > > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > > ought to require almost not= > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > > >> e. > > > > ... > > > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like > this: m3ship would ship only > > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > > started shipping the sources, > > > > not sure why. > > > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > > referenced > > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > > external > > > libraries though. > > > > > > Olaf > > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > > Berlin, Germany > > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht > Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110616/8f0ac803/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > *************************************** > > > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 22:30:44 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:30:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <534561.96847.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if so, why you bring the discussion about registry, if not relevant? This is more than that, like application manager, which is dependent by it's ownd efinition, I believe that's why your referent is that just that, so I bring the ARX OS optical disk file system, anyway, so the business is to make an DBMS product to keep the relevant info? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 22:36:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:36:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <534561.96847.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <237815.84510.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: BTW the AX OS was more like Mach than anything else but you are correct, Win are to be POSIX compliant but besides that, there isn't much there, maybe is just my impression if so. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "felipe valdez" CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 15:30 Hi all: if so, why you bring the discussion about registry, if not relevant? This is more than that, like application manager, which is dependent by it's ownd efinition, I believe that's why your referent is that just that, so I bring the ARX OS optical disk file system, anyway, so the business is to make an DBMS product to keep the relevant info? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 23:36:31 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:36:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <494260.13484.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: In terms of OS technologies, yes the idea was quite revolutionary, most of that came frrom Rrichard Cownie, application Manager of the OS: " Other prominent people on ARX were Steve Glassman (window system)" --may he rest in peace, died in alst October,- ", Carl Dellar (filesystem), Jon Gibbons (InterScript-based editor)." They were led in the project by Jim Mitchell, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._Mitchell Trevor Morris and Mick Jordan were the actual compiler duys, very small group but brave group of people! I give you all the email I interchanged with permission of the AM RC: Hi, Hmm, off the top of my head, I don't remember anything called CAMEL -do you have any idea what it was ? ?Something might come back to me. I did work on the other OS project, I think that's the thing called ARX.It was really crazy. ?Development was based in Palo Alto, California,with a bunch of ex-Xerox PARC people led by Jim Mitchell. ?The originalidea was for a brand new incompatible-with-anything-else OS forbusiness computing, using write-once optical disks instead of magnetic,with its own window system, its own transaction-based filesystem,its own editor based on Interscript, and basically anything wacky thatanyone felt like working on. ?And it was all supposed to run on a machinewith 512KByte of DRAM. I went out there for 6 months or so to work on the "Application Manager" -and I had never seen a windowing system, so I had no clue what thehell I was doing. ?There were no documents worth a damn. ?Mitchell wasalways just about to sit down and write the API's for the OS, but itnever happened. ?And they added Unix compatibility as a feature ata late stage, and really no-one had any idea how to do it. The whole thing was being developed using Acorn hardware and software -fileservers based on 6502 processors, the Acorn EcoNet network, andpersonal machines using early ARM boards. ?And there was no sensiblesource code management. ?The most useful thing I did was to write aprogram called "xfertree" which could sync up two file trees across thenetwork with minimal file transfers: if you copied a whole source treethings weren't reliable enough to get it done :-( And the whole thing was supposed to use Modula-2+, with heavy useof exceptions ... but the compiler was being developed at the same timeand didn't have the exception features yet ... A total mess. ?The project thrashed around for a while until the guysback in England got hardware and started essentially rewriting the BBC OSinto a mixture of ARM assembler and BBC BASIC - and that was whatbecame RISCOS. ?IIRC they hacked together the first version in just acouple of weeks, though there was a lot of evolution later, led byWilliam Stoye, a super-smart guy. Jim Mitchell, and I think many of the other ARX people, went on to joinSun and do another mostly-disastrous OS project, the Spring OS. As I say, I don't really remember "CAMEL", but I was around the ARXdevelopment and if you give me some hints it might jog my memory. Regards??Richard Cownie Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 24 22:55:50 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Message-ID: sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 25 03:15:02 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 27 18:50:12 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 01:31:09 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wagner at elegosoft.com Tue Jun 28 08:38:23 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 08:38:23 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] Advertising, was: Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110628083823.i8x23wyaogc080gk@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting felipe valdez : > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. And this would help? :-) > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? Probably not. None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for much advertising. > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. But you cannot command support in an open source project; people will just do what interests them. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dragisha at m3w.org Tue Jun 28 13:18:23 2011 From: dragisha at m3w.org (=?utf-8?Q?Dragi=C5=A1a_Duri=C4=87?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:18:23 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65D98B89-0240-401A-AD24-6A1BA72CD12A@m3w.org> I don't get this... There is easy to install, setup package, for windows? Or I just dreamt about it? Ir maybe not, I remember using it, also :). On Jun 28, 2011, at 1:31 AM, felipe valdez wrote: > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 16:37:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:37:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <65D98B89-0240-401A-AD24-6A1BA72CD12A@m3w.org> Message-ID: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "felipe valdez" CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 06:18 I don't get this... There is easy to install, setup package, for windows? Or I just dreamt about it? Ir maybe not, I remember using it, also :). On Jun 28, 2011, at 1:31 AM, felipe valdez wrote: in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dragisha at m3w.org Tue Jun 28 17:13:18 2011 From: dragisha at m3w.org (=?utf-8?Q?Dragi=C5=A1a_Duri=C4=87?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:13:18 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation. Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > Ji all: > I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. > Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). > > Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 17:48:15 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 10:48:15 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: hi, thanks for your prompt response. 2011/6/28 Dragi?a Duri? > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing > python. > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn > programming this summer. > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the > end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must > think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't > respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present > first). > > this is a fairly interesting question. the more users, the more traction, the more libraries, the more activity, the more stuff to learn, etc. also, the more users, the more real needs, from real users, which might drive the language forward in its usefulness. but, on the other hand, for those who do $work in m3, it would be a bad thing, since a lot of competition would be brought forward, and also a lot of bad code with it (generators, etc). so, the big question, is if it would be a desirable thing, to have a larger userbase. other companies, and language people, DO all the time try to get more people (by doing cool demos and stuff). > Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but > algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! > > I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF > with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries > (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. > the main reason for this to be useful for others, is that if there is a small videotutorial showing how to use it, the barrier of entry gets even lower. with a lot of source code contributed, there is a need for documentation. but still, I guess most would welcome your kind contribution, without any previous conditions. > I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" > class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of > binding automation. > > Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think > Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install > distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), > I agree, perhaps me blaming them for not having it is just me being ignorant of their efforts. but clearly, from the main cm3 page, there isn't a clear path towards a "getting started", it takes work just to setup the engine (for newbies like me at least), this is where a python "batteries included" approach excels at bringing people into the language. > Think Robotics. > > I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack > gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. > > I also agree that m3devel is not the place for the m3newbies, if such list exists, I'd like to join it! (haven't found the URL) if it doesn't, then we should create it in google groups! > To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help > straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, > someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? > > dd > > On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > Ji all: > I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, > user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, > Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, > Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC > (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are > others Algorithm Animation, etc. > Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, > however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original > Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, > the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals > talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). > > Thanks in advance > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 28 17:54:41 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: <20110628155441.GA3406@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn > programming this summer. Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called HtDP), which introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, direct, and gets to the point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches how to think about programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier to learn almost any other programming language. It really focusses on program design, not the arcana of Scheme. I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two in a course is effective even if the main point of the course is teaching another language (yes even though it means there ends up being less time to teach the other language). The book is available for purchase, or for free download. And there's a draft of a second edition available that can start a student off with graphics instead of (or as well as) math. Look at its Wikipedia article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs for further details. The course matches the DrRacket implementation of scheme. Go ask on the Racket mailing list for further advice on deployment. Students can ask there for study hints, too; the list members are helpful in helping the student figure out the problems rather than just giving answers. http://lists.racket-lang.org/ -- hendrik > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python > in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll be easier to understand if they go through the HtDP execrise first. > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't > think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep > to be what we present first). So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. -- hendrik From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 18:46:43 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:46:43 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/6/28 > > > Quoting felipe valdez : > > > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > > Modula-3 > > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their > language > > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to > grow > > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > And this would help? :-) > I think so, since it would lower the entry bar. > > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have > been > > made, to grow the community. > > > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > Probably not. > None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for > much advertising. > > this is a very sad thing to hear. I wonder why... > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. > But you cannot command support in an open source project; people > will just do what interests them. > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, which leads me to think really hard about, given this fact, how did it get so large and complex at all! in fact how did any OS project did got like that! it must really be in the interest of some people! -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 19:00:14 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:00:14 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, > sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe > still there: > > http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? > |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? > |?????? +?? |??? o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, > Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT > 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 > From: felipe valdez > Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to > grow > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > > > > 2011/6/25 > > > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > > From: Jay K > > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > To: m3devel > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > > I believe they both work. > > They have CPU and memory. > > And maybe hard drive. > > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > > it. > > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > > install from CD. > > > > > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > > (NT 4.0). > > > > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave > it > > as Hudson node. > > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > > really. > > > > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very > slow. > > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > > But I might set those back up. > > > > > > - Jay > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > > Tru64 > > To: m3devel , Jay K > > Message-ID: > > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi all: > > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of > its > > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on > each > > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > > AIX > > HW?????? > > > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? > ? > > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | > ?????? > > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? > o? > > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? > o?????? > > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? > |??? > > o > > > > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that > perhaps > > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > > > De: Jay K > > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > Para: "m3devel" > > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > > I believe they both work. > > They have CPU and memory. > > And maybe hard drive. > > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am > mid-replacing > > it. > > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > > install from CD. > > > > > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > > (NT 4.0). > > > > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave > it > > as Hudson node. > > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > > really. > > > > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very > slow. > > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) > and > > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > > But I might set those back up. > > > > > > ?- Jay > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > M3devel mailing list > > M3devel at elegosoft.com > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > > *************************************** > > > > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/50945171/attachment.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 21:34:14 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:34:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <20110628155441.GA3406@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <1309289654.41394.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: in that terms, it's good to check the "how to solve" (most recent version of it I know about) [1] pedagogy, It was "solved" their approach for programs "how to program" e.g HtP in University of Kent [2], see: http://books.google.com/books?id=jqk9hcIrWegC&lpg=PA324&ots=u1NBWS9ZSC&dq=how%20to%20solve%20it%20modula3&pg=PA324#v=onepage&q&f=false The book hot to design programs is not written in Modula-3 either tough they created accompanying material for problem solving, if you may want to check it to compare against HtDP approach for instance, see it here: http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/djb/probSolving.html Another I approach I know about googling was an appealing one at SUNY Stony Brook [3] using "black-box" Bertrand Meyer's book approach [4]: http://books.google.com/books?id=bFIRTXkLT74C&lpg=PA379&vq=Modula-3&dq=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F7241449%2FObjectOriented-Software-Construction&pg=PA379#v=onepage&q&f=false (book's 2nd edition available from scribd.com, see: http.//www.scribd.com/doc/7241449/ObjectOriented-Software-Construction although I don't know about accompanying CD-ROM about. I would like to ask their pupils (how, I don't know, social nets maybe, google survey, fb like or not ) what was the outcome or results from their students which of the following worked better so we may don't want the worse or at least improve one: My pick would be the first though I think we could create several options, like a combination of both, in that sense, I know University of Miami did research and created animation material, perhaps would be nice to ask them too, Juno-2 would be the perfect full-blown IDE (don't know how to integrate in cm3IDE either could be a matter of of applet, say an oblet, or something like Dragisha's framework too comes to mind) for me for applying the [1] concepts see in an object-oriented geometrical way (though I'm biased toward the tools admitted and some experience as well from yet another Professor in CS area, the one of Lego-machine simulator if you may want to see: https://lsl.unal.edu.co/eidos/index.php#SECTION00032000000000000000 ? in 2.2.3) here: http://www.geometricalgebra.net/ But would need to see what they achieve on time, perhaps another survey could ask them some things further. Thanks in advance [1] Z. Michalewicz and D. B. Fogel, How to Solve It: Modern Heuristics. Springer, 2004. [2] H. Glaser, P. H. Hartel, and H. Kuchen, Programming languages: implementations, logics, and programs?: 9th international symposium, PLILP ?97, including a special track on declarative programming languages in education, Southampton, UK, September 1-3, 1997?: proceedings. Springer, 1997. [3] F. Alt, Advances in computers. Academic Press, 2005. [4] B. Meyer, Object-Oriented Software Construction (Book/CD-ROM), 2nd ed. Prentice Hall, 2000. --- El mar, 28/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:54 > On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM > +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, > programmer-for-hire doing python. > > > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is > willing to learn > > programming this summer. > > Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called HtDP), > which > introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, direct, > and gets to the > point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches how to > think about > programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier to > learn almost any > other programming language. It really focusses on > program design, not > the arcana of Scheme. > > I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two in a > course is > effective even if the main point of the course is teaching > another > language (yes even though it means there ends up being less > time to > teach the other language). > > The book is available for purchase, or for free > download. And there's a > draft of a second edition available that can start a > student off with > graphics instead of (or as well as) math. > > Look at its Wikipedia article, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs > for further details. > > The course matches the DrRacket implementation of > scheme. Go ask on > the Racket mailing list for further advice on > deployment. Students > can ask there for study hints, too; the list members are > helpful in > helping the student figure out the problems rather than > just giving > answers. > http://lists.racket-lang.org/ > > -- hendrik > > > > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they > recommended python > > in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". > > Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll be > easier to > understand if they go through the HtDP execrise first. > > > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using > Modula-3 then we > > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less > Juno-2. (Don't > > think I don't respect these projects, I just think > they are too deep > > to be what we present first). > > So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. > > -- hendrik > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 21:46:40 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:46:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: <1309290400.50035.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: In fact I know about an interested guy in working in the Python Modula-3 scripting language approach rather than Obliq (Dr. John Kominek at CMU), he was checking the last cm3 distro available (hopefully he got it right) to actually make his dream true, it might be interesting to see that too, certainly would be lot of work to do it and to coordinate (so don't get forks but actual good combination of work), but nevertheless achievable in terms of the compactness of this group of Modula-3 folks. Yeah, I want to do it but properly, so let's see how this can go also a leader would be needed, who are the most indicated to take this decisions (I might have some paper about taking the best approach using fuzzy logic, but hopefully won't needed if we are clear). Let me know your thought, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:13 I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation.? Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 22:18:38 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:18:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 To: m3devel , Jay K Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 From: felipe valdez Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 23:04:47 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:04:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309295087.35174.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: indeed the idea is not bad at all neither, since there are many users who want to share every aspect of details on their implementation, the only way to unify this I guess is through something like that a module interface in cm3ide, it could map any relevant data to the server, I don't know how but potentially creating a botnet of people machines that can resemble the spirit of community driven project, whether by gathering people's machines information and retrieving updates, etc. I might try to see whether there is dog food for that I mean we can eat (in the below mentioned project, certainly for others too, SPIN for instance), If we can there must a way of do? it, I know o local project to give underprivileged schools educators a machine to each one (either by old or new to their Professors) and get back any interesting data ideally to maintain their compiler infrastructure working: http://www.computadoresparaeducar.gov.co/website/es/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=359&Itemid=320 (CEDARE center left link certainly interesting) Anyway I would need to ask that too what are their expectations about used stuff, but a donor is very much wanted. Obviously the needed ports are there but certainly miss acknowledge of it since, there are many of the "old" Win* box port's and new ones like mini FreeDOS, so it would it to gather some sort of measurement in the environment and needs and specifications, some of this numbers, like, see: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2615599 http://sites.google.com/site/rugxulo/updates Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 15:30 let us know if after you build your own os, you can fax us the original data. 2011/6/28 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 To: m3devel , Jay K Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 From: felipe valdez Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 00:46:27 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:46:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309290400.50035.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309301187.19492.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: but we can't afford to forget the only reason why Obliq being the first agent language, wasn't picked for Internet scripting language, Professor Abd?n S?nchez Sossa here told me recently it was by a hair that it wasn't picked (it is Modula-3/Obliq so light-weight) for sure it is! There are some dinosaurs out there very scary. But I don't see anything ill in the python out there no that old in itself :) See: http://books.google.com/books?ei=ilUKTvTmDfC00AGwxbyvAQ&ct=result&id=9Io_AQAAIAAJ&dq=modula3+environment&q=modula#search_anchor Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Dragi?a Duri?" CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 14:46 Hi all: In fact I know about an interested guy in working in the Python Modula-3 scripting language approach rather than Obliq (Dr. John Kominek at CMU), he was checking the last cm3 distro available (hopefully he got it right) to actually make his dream true, it might be interesting to see that too, certainly would be lot of work to do it and to coordinate (so don't get forks but actual good combination of work), but nevertheless achievable in terms of the compactness of this group of Modula-3 folks. Yeah, I want to do it but properly, so let's see how this can go also a leader would be needed, who are the most indicated to take this decisions (I might have some paper about taking the best approach using fuzzy logic, but hopefully won't needed if we are clear). Let me know your thought, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:13 I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation.? Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Wed Jun 29 09:34:42 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 00:34:42 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110629073442.540EB1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Some time ago, I shared the details for accessing by anonymous CVS the source code for my Scheme-in-Modula-3 system. It's based on Norvig's JScheme (but as it is in Modula I call it MScheme) and has all the same features (almost-complete version of R4RS) and more. The niftiest bit is that you can call Modula procedures and methods directly from Scheme; you can also override methods in Modula objects with Scheme procedures. That's all done with a stub generator based on the Network Objects stub generator. All that stuff is included. I use the system daily on "mission-critical" applications and it is relatively complete. Documentation, speed, and size of the executable are its weak spots. How to get it: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous at pluto.gcapltd.com:/home/gcap-public-cvs checkout . Mika "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." writes: >--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Hi all: >it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say= > so, so anyone involved can use it: >http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 > >I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance > > >--- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi=F3: > >De: felipe valdez >Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 >Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com >Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 > >to Daniel: > >the message was garbled > > > > >perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL = >? > > > >this is how it appeared in my gmail: > >OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX > > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+------- >DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > > >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + >i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o > > > >not the most readable... > > >to Mr. Jay K=20 > >I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a = >computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. > > >this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a publ= >ic IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a s= >imilar product in both ends. > > >I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a ser= >ver like the one you mention. > > >or maybe a community college or government-run university ? >good luck >I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. > > > > >2011/6/27 > > >Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) > >From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > >Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > > Tru64 > >To: m3devel , Jay K > >Message-ID: > > <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > > > >Hi all: > >completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, si= >cne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still= > there: > >http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/sum= >mary.html > > > >Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, the= >re is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting = >tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > > >Thanks in advance > > > >--- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. = >escribi?: > > > >De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > >Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" > >Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 > > > >Hi all: > >I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 syste= >m on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own = >win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential= > SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or = >if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > > > > >OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+------- > >DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > >i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o > > > > > >I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you co= >uld build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps = >with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > > >Thanks in advance > > > >--- El vie, 24/6/11, > > Jay K escribi?: > > > >De: Jay K > >Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >Para: "m3devel" > >Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > > > > > > >sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > >I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >I believe they both work. > >They have CPU and memory. > >And maybe hard drive. > >? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing = >it. > >And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to inst= >all from CD. > > > > > > > >They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (= >NT 4.0). > > > > > >I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > >Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > >And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it = >as Hudson node. > >? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, real= >ly. > > > > > >We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it woul= >d be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT > > 4.0/Alpha. > >VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow.= > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and = >maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > >I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > >But I might set those back up. > > > > > >?- Jay > > > >-------------- next part -------------- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: 9f44/attachment-0001.htm> > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 2 > >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 > >From: felipe valdez > >Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > >To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > > > >in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > >Modula-3 > >I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > >used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to gro= >w > >the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > > >this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > >made, to grow the community. > > > >is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > > >is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > > > > > > > > >2011/6/25 > > > >> Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > >> m3devel at elegosoft.com > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > >> 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > >> From: Jay K > >> Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> To: m3devel > >> Message-ID: > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > >> > >> > >> sorry if this is too repititive. > >> > >> > >> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >> I believe they both work. > >> They have CPU and memory. > >> And maybe hard drive. > >> one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > >> it. > >> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > >> install from CD. > >> > >> > >> > >> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > >> (NT 4.0). > >> > >> > >> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > >> > >> Cost is that we split shipping to US. > >> > >> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave i= >t > >> as Hudson node. > >> I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > >> really. > >> > >> > >> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > >> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > >> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slo= >w. > >> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >> Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >> Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > >> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > >> > >> I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >> Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >> PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > >> > >> > >> But I might set those back up. > >> > >> > >> - Jay > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13= >/attachment.html > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 2 > >> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > >> From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > >> Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > >> Tru64 > >> To: m3devel , Jay K > >> Message-ID: > >> <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > >> > >> Hi all: > >> I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > >> system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of i= >ts > >> own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > >> potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on ea= >ch > >> row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > >> > >> OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > >> AIX > >> HW?????? > >> -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+= >----------+-----------+------- > >> DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +?= > ? > >> ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > >> i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????= >? > >> x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > >> i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? = >o? > >> ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o???= >??? > >> |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |?= >?? > >> o > >> > >> > >> I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > >> could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perh= >aps > >> with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > >> > >> Thanks in advance > >> > >> --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > >> > >> De: Jay K > >> Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> Para: "m3devel" > >> Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> sorry if this is too repititive. > >> > >> > >> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >> I believe they both work. > >> They have CPU and memory. > >> And maybe hard drive. > >> ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacin= >g > >> it. > >> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > >> install from CD. > >> > >> > >> > >> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > >> (NT 4.0). > >> > >> > >> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > >> > >> Cost is that we split shipping to US. > >> > >> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave i= >t > >> as Hudson node. > >> ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > >> really. > >> > >> > >> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > >> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > >> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slo= >w. > >> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >> ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >> ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) an= >d > >> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > >> > >> I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >> ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >> ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > >> > >> > >> But I might set those back up. > >> > >> > >> ?- Jay > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672= >/attachment-0001.htm > > > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> M3devel mailing list > >> M3devel at elegosoft.com > >> https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >> > >> > >> End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > >> *************************************** > >> > > > > > > > >-- > >312-444-2124 > >301-578-7884 > >-------------- next part -------------- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: 5171/attachment.htm> > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >M3devel mailing list > >M3devel at elegosoft.com > >https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > > > >End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 > >*************************************** > > > > >--=20 >312-444-2124301-578-7884 > > > > >--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">Hi all:
it's a good idea, but nicer to use= > the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it= >:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690

I will see who can pro= >vide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance


--- El ma= >r, 28/6/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi= >=F3:
n-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">
De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gma= >il.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30
Par= >a: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00

<= >div id=3D"yiv1784092051">to Daniel:>
new', monospace">
tyle-span" > face=3D"'courier new', monospace">the message was garbled
> >

ass=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
_quote">perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us i= >n a URL ?
>
>

84092051gmail_quote">this is how it appeared in my gmail:
=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
ote">
r-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">OS??= >????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIXr> > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+-------
DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |= >??????? o??????? | ???
o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |= >?? +??????
> >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????= >? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? |
_quote">pse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> ?????? o? = >? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????= >? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |?= >?? o
> >

51gmail_quote">
not the mo= >st readable...

class=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
il_quote"> >to Mr. Jay K
>

51gmail_quote">I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might b= >e in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn lin= >ux or whatever.
> >
this would reduce shippin= >g cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should sti= >ll be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both en= >ds.
> >

51gmail_quote">I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have a= >ccess to a server like the one you mention.
51gmail_quote">
> >or maybe a community college or government-run university ?
=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
ote">good luck

class=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">I'd help you myself, but I live too far = >away, unfortunately.
> >

51gmail_quote">

= >
2011/6/27 < rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:m3devel-request at elegosoft.com" target= >=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosoft.com">m3devel= >-request at elegosoft.com>
> >
lid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Send= > M3devel mailing list submissions to
> =3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel at elegoso= >ft.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> t.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/= >mailman/listinfo/m3devel
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> " target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosoft.com"= >>m3devel-request at elegosoft.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-owner at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel-owner at elegosoft.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
> 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST)
>From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <ilto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddabe= >navidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L,
> Tru64
>To: m3devel <" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel= >@elegosoft.com>, Jay K <.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at co= >rnell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>Message-ID:
> <lClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose= >?to=3D1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com">130919= >3412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>
>Hi all:
>completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, si= >cne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still= > there:
>manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html">http://www.cs.tut.= >fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html
>
>Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, the= >re is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting = >tough to see it on a Chicago/PC!
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>--- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <ymailto=3D"mailto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/comp= >ose?to=3Ddabenavidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:
>
>De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddabenavi= >desd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64> >Para: "m3devel" <.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel at elegosoft.com>, "Jay K" <to:jay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.kr= >ell at cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15
>
>Hi all:
>I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 syste= >m on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own = >win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential= > SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or = >if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS
> > >
>OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX
>HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+-------
>DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ???
> o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +??????
>i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
>i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? |
> ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o
>
>
>I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you co= >uld build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps = >with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>--- El vie, 24/6/11,
> Jay K <get=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.krell at co= >rnell.edu> escribi?:
>
>De: Jay K <target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.krell= >@cornell.edu>
>Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
>Para: "m3devel" <.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel at elegosoft.com>
>Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55
>
>
>
>
>
>sorry if this is too repititive.
>
>
>I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>I believe they both work.
>They have CPU and memory.
>And maybe hard drive.
>? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing = >it.
>And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to inst= >all from CD.
>
>
>
>They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (= >NT 4.0).
>
>
>I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>
>Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>
>And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it = >as Hudson node.
>? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, real= >ly.
>
>
>We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions.r> >NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it woul= >d be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT
> 4.0/Alpha.
>VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow.= > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and = >maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>
>I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>
>
>But I might set those back up.
>
>
>?- Jay
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: <t.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/attachment-0001.htm">= >http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/a= >ttachment-0001.htm>
> > >
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500
>From: felipe valdez <gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfelipevaldez at gmail.co= >m">felipevaldez at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29
>To: _blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel at elegosoft.c= >om
>Message-ID: <-fDhyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DB= >ANLkTinc3Nk9NLQTBbAN-fDhyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com">BANLkTinc3Nk9NLQTBbAN-fD= >hyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>
>in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and> >Modula-3
>I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language<= >br> >used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to gro= >w
>the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows.
>
>this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been= >
>made, to grow the community.
>
>is anybody in this list actively working on this?
>
>is having a larger modula3 community, desirable?
>
>
>
>
>2011/6/25 <ft.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosof= >t.com">m3devel-request at elegosoft.com>
>
>> Send M3devel mailing list submissions to
>> rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel at ele= >gosoft.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> osoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-= >bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> .com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosoft.= >com">m3devel-request at elegosoft.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> om" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-owner at elegosoft.com"= >>m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> >> than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K)
>> 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
>> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= >
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000
>> From: Jay K <l.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">ja= >y.krell at cornell.edu>
>> Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64<= >br> >> To: m3devel <t.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3= >devel at elegosoft.com>
>> Message-ID: <COL101-W5153CD2C4CB5C3B2614650E6520 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>> sorry if this is too repititive.
>>
>>
>> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>> I believe they both work.
>> They have CPU and memory.
>> And maybe hard drive.
>> one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replac= >ing
>> it.
>> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to= >
>> install from CD.
>>
>>
>>
>> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Wind= >ows
>> (NT 4.0).
>>
>>
>> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>>
>> Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>>
>> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leav= >e it
>> as Hudson node.
>> I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space,<= >br> >> really.
>>
>>
>> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versio= >ns.
>> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it= >
>> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha.
>> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very = >slow.
>> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>> Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>> Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) = >and
>> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>>
>> I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>> Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>> PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>>
>>
>> But I might set those back up.
>>
>>
>> - Jay
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> m/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html">http://m= >ail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachmen= >t.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST)
>> From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <=3D"mailto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to= >=3Ddabenavidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>> Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L,> >> Tru64
>> To: m3devel <t.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3= >devel at elegosoft.com>, Jay K <o:jay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.kre= >ll at cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>> <oMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/com= >pose?to=3D1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com">13= >08964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi all:
>> I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3<= >br> >> system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server o= >f its
>> own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through<= >br> >> potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on= > each
>> row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS
>>
>> OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-U= >X |
>> AIX
>> HW??????
>> -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+--------------= >--+----------+-----------+-------
>> DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ?????= > +? ?
>> ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +??????
>> i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ??= >????
>> x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
>> i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ????= >?? o?
>> ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o= >??????
>> |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +??= > |???
>> o
>>
>>
>> I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if y= >ou
>> could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that p= >erhaps
>> with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K <ay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell@= >cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu> escribi?:
>>
>> De: Jay K <edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.= >krell at cornell.edu>
>> Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64r> >> Para: "m3devel" <osoft.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com= >">m3devel at elegosoft.com>
>> Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> sorry if this is too repititive.
>>
>>
>> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>> I believe they both work.
>> They have CPU and memory.
>> And maybe hard drive.
>> ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-repla= >cing
>> it.
>> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to= >
>> install from CD.
>>
>>
>>
>> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Wind= >ows
>> (NT 4.0).
>>
>>
>> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>>
>> Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>>
>> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leav= >e it
>> as Hudson node.
>> ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space,= >
>> really.
>>
>>
>> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versio= >ns.
>> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it= >
>> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha.
>> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very = >slow.
>> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>> ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>> ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo)= > and
>> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>>
>> I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>> ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>> ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>>
>>
>> But I might set those back up.
>>
>>
>> ?- Jay
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> m/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm">http= >://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attac= >hment-0001.htm
> > >> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> M3devel mailing list
>> "_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DM3devel at elegosoft.com">M3devel at elegosoft.= >com
>> om/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mai= >lman/listinfo/m3devel
>>
>>
>> End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29
>> ***************************************
>>
>
>
>
>--
>312-444-2124
>301-578-7884
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> > >
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>M3devel mailing list
>nk" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DM3devel at elegosoft.com">M3devel at elegosoft.coma>
>i-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/= >listinfo/m3devel
>
>
>End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30
>***************************************
>



--
312-444-2124
301-57= >8-7884


>
>
>--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803-- From wagner at elegosoft.com Wed Jun 29 12:37:51 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:37:51 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110629123751.884k79uq0484woss@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting felipe valdez : > 2011/6/28 >> >> Quoting felipe valdez : >> > is anybody in this list actively working on this? >> >> Probably not. >> None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for >> much advertising. > > this is a very sad thing to hear. > I wonder why... Everybody deeply involved in his work or research projects? >> > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? >> >> Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. >> But you cannot command support in an open source project; people >> will just do what interests them. > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, > which leads me to think really hard about, > given this fact, how did it get so large and complex at all! > > in fact how did any OS project did got like that! > > it must really be in the interest of some people! Modula-3 was developed mostly at the Systems Research Center of Digital, though it was never a sold product of them. The code base was always free, and later used in university research and teaching and the base for a commercial distribution (by Critical Mass Inc.), which then was released as open source again some years later. Development was mostly done in university or enterprise research labs; there never was much of an independent user community. There are some dozen users left with very different application areas and interests. Any newcomers are welcome and contributions are greatly appreciated, regardless if of technical of advertising nature. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 16:22:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:22:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309289654.41394.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309357348.20005.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I just saw 6 days before was published yet another one [1] on Polya's method: http://books.google.com/books?id=4QKcaXrVZb0C Thanks in advance [1] U. Daepp and P. Gorkin, Reading, Writing, and Proving: A Closer Look at Mathematics. Springer, 2011. --- El mar, 28/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 14:34 > Hi all: > in that terms, it's good to check the "how to solve" (most > recent version of it I know about) [1] pedagogy, It was > "solved" their approach for programs "how to program" e.g > HtP in University of Kent [2], see: > http://books.google.com/books?id=jqk9hcIrWegC&lpg=PA324&ots=u1NBWS9ZSC&dq=how%20to%20solve%20it%20modula3&pg=PA324#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > The book hot to design programs is not written in Modula-3 > either tough they created accompanying material for problem > solving, if you may want to check it to compare against HtDP > approach for instance, see it here: > http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/djb/probSolving.html > > Another I approach I know about googling was an appealing > one at SUNY Stony Brook [3] using "black-box" Bertrand > Meyer's book approach [4]: > http://books.google.com/books?id=bFIRTXkLT74C&lpg=PA379&vq=Modula-3&dq=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F7241449%2FObjectOriented-Software-Construction&pg=PA379#v=onepage&q&f=false > > (book's 2nd edition available from scribd.com, see: > http.//www.scribd.com/doc/7241449/ObjectOriented-Software-Construction > > although I don't know about accompanying CD-ROM about. > > I would like to ask their pupils (how, I don't know, social > nets maybe, google survey, fb like or not ) what was the > outcome or results from their students which of the > following worked better so we may don't want the worse or at > least improve one: > > My pick would be the first though I think we could create > several options, like a combination of both, in that sense, > I know University of Miami did research and created > animation material, perhaps would be nice to ask them too, > Juno-2 would be the perfect full-blown IDE (don't know how > to integrate in cm3IDE either could be a matter of of > applet, say an oblet, or something like Dragisha's framework > too comes to mind) for me for applying the [1] concepts see > in an object-oriented geometrical way (though I'm biased > toward the tools admitted and some experience as well from > yet another Professor in CS area, the one of Lego-machine > simulator if you may want to see: > https://lsl.unal.edu.co/eidos/index.php#SECTION00032000000000000000 > ? > in 2.2.3) here: > http://www.geometricalgebra.net/ > > But would need to see what they achieve on time, perhaps > another survey could ask them some things further. > > Thanks in advance > > [1] Z. Michalewicz and D. B. Fogel, How to Solve It: Modern > Heuristics. Springer, 2004. > > [2] H. Glaser, P. H. Hartel, and H. Kuchen, Programming > languages: implementations, logics, and programs?: 9th > international symposium, PLILP ?97, including a > special track on declarative programming languages in > education, Southampton, UK, September 1-3, 1997?: > proceedings. Springer, 1997. > > [3] F. Alt, Advances in computers. Academic Press, 2005. > > [4] B. Meyer, Object-Oriented Software Construction > (Book/CD-ROM), 2nd ed. Prentice Hall, 2000. > > > > > --- El mar, 28/6/11, Hendrik Boom > escribi?: > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue > 29 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:54 > > On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM > > +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > > > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, > > programmer-for-hire doing python. > > > > > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son > who is > > willing to learn > > > programming this summer. > > > > Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called > HtDP), > > which > > introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, > direct, > > and gets to the > > point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches > how to > > think about > > programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier > to > > learn almost any > > other programming language. It really focusses > on > > program design, not > > the arcana of Scheme. > > > > I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two > in a > > course is > > effective even if the main point of the course is > teaching > > another > > language (yes even though it means there ends up being > less > > time to > > teach the other language). > > > > The book is available for purchase, or for free > > download. And there's a > > draft of a second edition available that can start a > > student off with > > graphics instead of (or as well as) math. > > > > Look at its Wikipedia article, > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs > > for further details. > > > > The course matches the DrRacket implementation of > > scheme. Go ask on > > the Racket mailing list for further advice on > > deployment. Students > > can ask there for study hints, too; the list members > are > > helpful in > > helping the student figure out the problems rather > than > > just giving > > answers. > > http://lists.racket-lang.org/ > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, > they > > recommended python > > > in the end and the best argument I saw was: > PyGTK". > > > > Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll > be > > easier to > > understand if they go through the HtDP execrise > first. > > > > > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users > using > > Modula-3 then we > > > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, > less > > Juno-2. (Don't > > > think I don't respect these projects, I just > think > > they are too deep > > > to be what we present first). > > > > So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. > > > > -- hendrik > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 16:51:35 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:51:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <20110629123751.884k79uq0484woss@mx0.elegosoft.com> Message-ID: <1309359095.55345.YahooMailClassic@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: just in case matters there were coins about the same time Wirth and fellows wrote their ideas on paper: http://books.google.com/books?ei=5zcLTpCmGpGUtwfflY1b&ct=result&id=g4hVAAAAMAAJ&dq=modula3+computer+language&q=modula-3#search_anchor by Namir Clement Shammas, although totally unrelated by the way it describes as I can see so far, nevertheless perhaps considering this ideas could be a better way of realize what the world was like in that time, and why they should be taken on account just in case it matters today. Still others follow their own "Paradise" dreams like: http://books.google.com/books?id=IDPjVzBRXFIC&lpg=PA21&dq=modula3%20modula2&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false But agree Modula-3 pay it's bills: http://books.google.com/books?ei=wjoLTrmOHdGgtgelp6hp&ct=result&id=UdtQAAAAMAAJ&dq=exceptions+modula3&q=modula#search_anchor Interesting enough is that there was a Turbo Modula-2, I believe was object oriented, never saw anything of its code. What do you think of them? Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > De: Olaf Wagner > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 05:37 > Quoting felipe valdez : > > > 2011/6/28 > >> > >> Quoting felipe valdez : > > >> > is anybody in this list actively working on > this? > >> > >> Probably not. > >> None of the regular users seems to have both time > and interest for > >> much advertising. > > > > this is a very sad thing to hear. > > I wonder why... > > Everybody deeply involved in his work or research > projects? > > >> > is having a larger modula3 community, > desirable? > >> > >> Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is > much appreciated. > >> But you cannot command support in an open source > project; people > >> will just do what interests them. > > > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, > > which leads me to think really hard about, > > given this fact, how did it get so large and complex > at all! > > > > in fact how did any OS project did got like that! > > > > it must really be in the interest of some people! > > Modula-3 was developed mostly at the Systems Research > Center of > Digital, though it was never a sold product of them. The > code base > was always free, and later used in university research and > teaching > and the base for a commercial distribution (by Critical > Mass Inc.), > which then was released as open source again some years > later. > > Development was mostly done in university or enterprise > research labs; > there never was much of an independent user community. > > There are some dozen users left with very different > application areas > and interests. > > Any newcomers are welcome and contributions are greatly > appreciated, > regardless if of technical of advertising nature. > > Olaf > -- > Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > http://www.elegosoft.com | > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 29 23:55:34 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:55:34 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > completely forgot the Win9* systems That is probably best -- to just forget it. > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! But if you really want, many releases of Modula-3 should work fine on Win9x. And if anyone really seriously wants it, the current code can easily be tested and fixed to work on Win9x. There's no point in Cygwinb20. That is really really old. Cygwin 1.5 works on Win9x. Though 1.7 is current and doesn't work on Win9x. I really don't have much time lately to install anything on these systems before shipping them out. I'm too busy with other things, including even some Modula-3 stuff maybe. - Jay Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp o | o | o | o | + | x | + | + i86pc o | o | o | + | x | x | x | + i86smp o | o | o | + | o | x | x | + Ppc o | o | o | + | o | x | + | o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu Jun 30 03:35:54 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:35:54 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: References: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > completely forgot the Win9* systems > > That is probably best -- to just forget it. I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it on once in a blue moon. It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would really be useful, I could try Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the effort. > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I tried running it once, and it was most mysterious. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 30 17:09:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:09:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <1309446540.70332.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: perhaps, you could check if this recording makes sense, i says at the beginning is an excerpt (So a good idea would get a copy of the original). http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=8026 Anyway, the major critics of this is the supposed to be low speed of execution, I think if this run on a Win9* pc, I can just to conclude that: 1. The system is functional enough to run in a 199* system. 2. The critics are true if the system is stress-tested (see 1 for this info) 3. The idea behind the constraint solver is not enough compiler-enabled optimized for today's applied benchmarks If the above is true then there might be some techniques to make that happen In example tune the compiler as they did in development. As it hasn't been too much updated besides a JVM-based backend there is a big question how much of this is good to pick, but JVM-based backend http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html doesn't handle the constraint solver at all. So we might check what have been the main constraint solver techniques developed for that purpose (lately logic analyzers, but sold as a kit, perhaps doable on Modula-3, perhaps and ASIP but can we build one of such, perhaps yes with some library called m3tools): http://members.tripod.com/srini_seetharam/thesis.pdf Back indee in DEC-SRC they offered to license the toolkit in other platforms, perhaps somebody would asked about it, I'm not aware of that but it seems they could seek that in the future. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 20:35 > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM > +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > > > completely forgot the Win9* > systems > > > > That is probably best -- to just > forget it. > > I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it > on once in a blue moon. > It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would > really be useful, I could try > Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the > effort. > > > > > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if > the most important of tools is that, > > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it > runs smoothly, > > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I > tried running it once, and > it was most mysterious. > > -- hendrik > From rcolebur at SCIRES.COM Thu Jun 30 20:35:36 2011 From: rcolebur at SCIRES.COM (Coleburn, Randy) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:35:36 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> References: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: Back in the early days of cm3, I did run some Modula3 stuff on Windows 95/98 before NT4.0. My recollection is that Win98 fared better than Win95, but that all was much better on NT4.0. I seem to recall having more trouble with multithreaded programs on Win9x and also the garbage collector. I think you had to run with @M3novm parameter to disable virtual motion on Win9x. Regards, Randy Coleburn -----Original Message----- From: Hendrik Boom [mailto:hendrik at topoi.pooq.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 9:36 PM To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > completely forgot the Win9* systems > > That is probably best -- to just forget it. I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it on once in a blue moon. It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would really be useful, I could try Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the effort. > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I tried running it once, and it was most mysterious. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 30 21:00:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:00:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309460441.46490.YahooMailClassic@web29707.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if you ask me why then would I share the question with you, can you make this graphic in postcript easily in how many seconds can you draw this document p13 in the screen in ps or eps: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.7537 If you can build such quicker than and more than that edit -> compile -> view quickly then you're ready to go. Think in ULSI and VLSI systems doing this for the work stuff (if anything us included) . The Ps (already present) or JVM backends (see: http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html ) are quick enough, but to what it makes that is the constraint solver, which is indeed very advanced combining symbolic and numerical solving using provided initial approximation. So at least less fpu cycles to help the later are welcome (e.g any hardware speed-up might solve this better). I'm not really sure how much of this does Modula-3 as for I know in i86pc boxes it doesn't really do that (i.e it doesn't accelerate FPU in the intended way, e.g doesn't handle in same cycles as you said normally), but SGI, DEC, perhaps PA-RISC, and PPC are other history (this makes again more important to keep this older machine ports, as for reference points, as I don't have such good machines to keep it alive with some cm3ide server on).? Experimental platforms might be for reference as well: http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw32/dobson.html Anyway to test i86pc or possible *DOS implementations will need something like NTHydra or so UI client of MIPSr4000, Alpha, i86pc in NT, or so to do in-situ testing and others alike as well as Zeus sessions available (see man Juno.1 for more details). Thanks in advance --- El jue, 30/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Fecha: jueves, 30 de junio, 2011 10:55 2011/6/30 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: perhaps, you could check if this recording makes sense, i says at the beginning is an excerpt (So a good idea would get a copy of the original). http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=8026 this was actually very intersting and educational! it reminded me of "the mother of all demso", by douglas engelbert. Anyway, the major critics of this is the supposed to be low speed of execution, I think if this run on a Win9* pc, I can just to conclude that: 1. The system is functional enough to run in a 199* system. certainly, one could conclude that... but just trowing more cycles at it, doesn't make it faster... 2. The critics are true if the system is stress-tested (see 1 for this info) 3. The idea behind the constraint solver is not enough compiler-enabled optimized for today's applied benchmarks If the above is true then there might be some techniques to make that happen In example tune the compiler as they did in development. in this case, I don't think performance is the responsability of the compiler writers, but of the sofwtare writer. As it hasn't been too much updated besides a JVM-based backend there is a big question how much of this is good to pick, but JVM-based backend http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html doesn't handle the constraint solver at all. So we might check what have been the main constraint solver techniques developed for that purpose (lately logic analyzers, but sold as a kit, perhaps doable on Modula-3, perhaps and ASIP but can we build one to what end, would we build one exactly?other than to satisfy this curiosity? does this have a real-world application? I fail to think of one... of such, perhaps yes with some library called m3tools): http://members.tripod.com/srini_seetharam/thesis.pdf Back indee in DEC-SRC they offered to license the toolkit in other platforms, perhaps somebody would asked about it, I'm not aware of that but it seems they could seek that in the future. given that cm3 used to be paid, but now is free, I think the market would go for that which is cheaper.therefore, a commercial implementation, of a not-widely used language, seems to be only desirable, for those who *already* have legacy systems based on such tecnology, and people would probably not "buy" into it, so that they could develop new software, given free (and open source) alternatives. also, since the main use of m3 seems to be research, and researches are often trying to use free sofwtare, and getting away from paid tools, it seems plausible to say, with a certain level of certainty, that this (license tooklit) is very unlikely to happen, in my opinion Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 20:35 > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM > +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > > > completely forgot the Win9* > systems > > > > That is probably best -- to just > forget it. > > I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it > on once in a blue moon. > It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would > really be useful, I could try > Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the > effort. > > > > > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if > the most important of tools is that, > > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it > runs smoothly, > > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I > tried running it once, and > it was most mysterious. > > -- hendrik > -- 312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wagner at elegosoft.com Thu Jun 2 13:21:53 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 13:21:53 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] Installing CM3 on Xubuntu box In-Reply-To: <20110531180345.bbfad895.dukeofperl@ml1.net> References: <20110531180345.bbfad895.dukeofperl@ml1.net> Message-ID: <20110602132153.2hxog5zpekg0ckwg@mail.elegosoft.com> Quoting Duke Normandin : > Hi... > > I'm interested in test-driving a Modula-3 compiler, and perhaps > seriously learning the language. The closest I've come to Modula-3 > is Oberon-2 (oo2c; ETH LNO; and Mike Spivey's OBC) > > I just Dled cm3-src-all-5.8.6-REL.tgz > > From the extracted directory tree, I'm not too sure how to proceed > to build the compiler on my system. I see that you have 3 mailing > lists, but none seem appropriate for noob questions or "How to > install?" questions. Can you direct me to the appropriate newsgroup > or mailing list please. Much obliged! Sorry for the delay, I'm not at home currently and only read my mail now and then. To install CM3, please look at http://www.opencm3.net/, follow the Donwload link and read the installation instructions. If you encounter any problems, the appropriate mailing list is m3devel at elegosoft.com; you will find instructions on how to subscribe in the Resources area of the web presentation. Have fun with Modula-3, Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 3 22:00:13 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 20:00:13 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Message-ID: I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: old x86 laptops old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 ) Mac PowerPC laptops iMac G5 AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) Alphas SPARC RS/6000 SGI Fuel (2) Pretty much everything should go. Prices are very negotiable. It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required. There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS, ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc. I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 4 01:10:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 00:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 02:12:39 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:12:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 03:55:00 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:55:00 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Some work may have been done: > http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html > Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. We are well beyond that. Porting is vastly easier than it used to be. And it wasn't ever really so bad, just tedious and error prone. The primary work is now to test and debug, and often everything just works. Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining portability, besides performance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). Short of that, we did switch to get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads. And sigaltstack on some platforms. OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads, but for userthreads we still hack on the jmpbuf. Generating C would also help. Again I bring up the comparison: consider some random C or C++ program. That uses open/read/write/close. And either X Windows or Win32. And pthreads or Win32. How much work is it to port such a program? Basically none. Esp. if you factor in autoconf. That is where Modula-3 could/should be. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:12:39 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo; there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: old x86 laptops old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 ) Mac PowerPC laptops iMac G5 AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) Alphas SPARC RS/6000 SGI Fuel (2) Pretty much everything should go. Prices are very negotiable. It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required. There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS, ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc. I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 04:06:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:06:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <275325.71499.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and your long-waited wished and dreamed C backend code generator could be at hand: http://www.cminusminus.org/ http://getglue.com/topics/p/c http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~techrep/CS-98-19.ps.Z http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.123.8192 Hopefully some sort of draft of implementation exists for it. Would be nice since the code is still machine level and really portable, so that's even nicer! Have fun (this will make things for porting in Cell phones with Garbage collection support and so on). Also theoretical background is at hand (1), which is nicer again, since translation is smoothly and efficient and correct if semantics are respected. Thanks in advance 1.? Rabin, Daniel Eli.? Calculi for functional programming languages with assignment [Ph.D. dissertation].?United States -- Connecticut: Yale University; 1996. Available from: Dissertations & Theses: Full Text. Accessed June 4, 2011,?Publication Number: AAT 9636080. --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 19:12 Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 04:37:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:37:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <275325.71499.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <496328.68145.qm@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: also kind of like this approach since we could cross debugging programs easily, so again I really like much more this approach, and of course OpenCL and stuff coming its way soon will be helped by this too. Also adopting this to the old m3-tk olivetti backend code generator, could be a good reason to ask about it. I think there is a way of? debugging easily in the AST, or at least that's what they thought was their next step. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 21:06 Hi all: and your long-waited wished and dreamed C backend code generator could be at hand: http://www.cminusminus.org/ http://getglue.com/topics/p/c http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~techrep/CS-98-19.ps.Z http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.123.8192 Hopefully some sort of draft of implementation exists for it. Would be nice since the code is still machine level and really portable, so that's even nicer! Have fun (this will make things for porting in Cell phones with Garbage collection support and so on). Also theoretical background is at hand (1), which is nicer again, since translation is smoothly and efficient and correct if semantics are respected. Thanks in advance 1.? Rabin, Daniel Eli.? Calculi for functional programming languages with assignment [Ph.D. dissertation].?United States -- Connecticut: Yale University; 1996. Available from: Dissertations & Theses: Full Text. Accessed June 4, 2011,?Publication Number: AAT 9636080. --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 19:12 Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Sun Jun 5 04:48:53 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 19:48:53 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> ... >Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining portability=2C besides perf= >ormance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). >Short of that=2C we did switch to get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads= >. >And sigaltstack on some platforms. >OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads=2C but for userthreads we s= >till hack on the jmpbuf. ... Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... But I hope we keep the user threads implementation working for other reasons. It's far easier to add new concurrency mechanisms, and to control the overhead of threading, in the user threads implementation than in the pthreads one. I'm specifically thinking of stuff like programs with many threads (I mean millions of threads) or things like "goroutines". Handling either is not particularly difficult with user threads. Same with the stack overlapping tricks I was investigating a while back. Not sure if it's even possible with pthreads. Also consider CSP-like constructs. CSP channels can be emulated under pthreads (indeed one would probably do it with the plain Modula-3 threading constructs) but become very inefficient. Maybe M-on-N threading (or whatever it's called) would be necessary to make all this work best. User threads within pthreads. Is that difficult? Mika From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 05:08:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 04:08:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <810200.78882.qm@web29717.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I heard from a U. Delaware Professor that they were working in Open64 research compiler, the exact details I don't know, but they did have a machine super (symmetric) multiprocessor and he told they were trying with Microthreads (in his brief conference he said that Win nor Linux were amenable for that, that is, inefficient), when I asked his opinion about Pascal, he told preferred speed than anything else, sadly, but I myself prefer good compromise between speed (execution) and safety (and they are related truly, precisely, this was evident in the ARX project when the compiled code was double size for ARM compared to 32016 back in Acorn days before Olivetti, I think they compiled code for they SUN NeWS for it too which was as far as I know C plus classes or at least something like that). If I may say so, there are other attempt to make safe C, CCured is one, they inserted RT calls to detect RT otherwise failures, very much like SPIN did. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Mika Nystrom escribi?: > De: Mika Nystrom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. > Para: "Jay K" > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 21:48 > ... > >Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining > portability=2C besides perf= > >ormance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). > >Short of that=2C we did switch to > get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads= > >. > >And sigaltstack on some platforms. > >OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads=2C but > for userthreads we s= > >till hack on the jmpbuf. > ... > > Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... > > But I hope we keep the user threads implementation working > for other > reasons. It's far easier to add new concurrency > mechanisms, and to > control the overhead of threading, in the user threads > implementation > than in the pthreads one. > > I'm specifically thinking of stuff like programs with many > threads (I mean > millions of threads) or things like "goroutines". > Handling either is not > particularly difficult with user threads. Same with > the stack overlapping > tricks I was investigating a while back. Not sure if > it's even possible > with pthreads. Also consider CSP-like > constructs. CSP channels can be > emulated under pthreads (indeed one would probably do it > with the plain > Modula-3 threading constructs) but become very > inefficient. > > Maybe M-on-N threading (or whatever it's called) would be > necessary > to make all this work best. User threads within > pthreads. Is that > difficult? > > Mika > > From ttmrichter at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 04:19:13 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Message-ID: === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) 1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3 "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encountered compilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 05:28:07 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:28:07 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 18:16:58 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 19:38:55 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:38:55 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 20:23:38 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:23:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 #yiv1944419358 .yiv1944419358ExternalClass #yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1944419358 .yiv1944419358ExternalClass #yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 23:30:06 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:30:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6490.14871.qm@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and in the Acorn (later Olivetti) Research Center, they did actually quite of bit of the RT for the SUN NeWS, sort of interesting if you see the details behind it: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5274804/description.html If this things are old-fashioned I guess there is not too much good about current things, if I may say so :) : http://drdobbs.com/high-performance-computing/184415243 Ok, but if there is a good inter operable distributed platform is also a good idea, specially if the tools are ready: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.8345 Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 13:23 Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 #yiv1213456000 .yiv1213456000ExternalClass #yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1213456000 .yiv1213456000ExternalClass #yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 23:38:16 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 21:38:16 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Again, no. Modula-3 implementations have always depended on a C runtime. Always. Removing such a dependency is a tedious error-prone target-dependent task. And it buys you nothing. Please stop this crazy thinking. When there is a system that provides "m3core" from its "kernel", along with .i3 files, then you can cut the C runtime dependency for that target. Just for that target. Meanwhile, Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, Darwin, Cygwin, Interix, and hypothetical AIX, Irix, HP-UX, VMS targets will always have a C runtime dependency. Even on Win32/NT -- today we depend on very little, but on setjmp/longjmp. A good C backend would use __try/__except/__finally -- still depending on a C runtime. If you really want to cut the dependency, look perhaps at what was done for Go. Good luck. Keep in mind that e.g. Solaris and Apple don't allow for static linking the C runtime. Which somewhat implies that the kernel interface is private/undocumented/unstable. The C runtime is the blessed portability layer to target multiple revisions. I do find that a bit unfortunate. The Linux kernel does not implement pthreads. The C runtime does. And many more examples of varying thickness. Other ideas would be to generate Java or C#. C# is more viable since it is selectively unsafe. Java is probably not practical. > truly independent platform low level C-- No. Platform independence is mostly a matter of who all has done the porting for you already. Or how much of the work you have done yourself without depending on a lower level. Targeting a C compiler is far more compatible than anything else. In the realm of C--, LLVM is probably better. But again, C is much more portable. Of course, LLVM might be portable enough. C is also, again, more familiar. Would you rather maintain and debug code that interfaces with LLVM or code that generates C? Granted, both LLVM and the underlying C compiler will have bugs. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:23:38 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Mon Jun 6 00:01:25 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 18:01:25 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110605220125.GA7436@topoi.pooq.com> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > Hi all: > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) C-- is my favourite object code language, but it lacks support. As far as I know, it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe and that's about it. Several others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but that isn't really good enough. There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup on gmane. THe project looks moribund. I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- project, but I'm really not sure how to do it. It would probably be a lot of work. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 6 04:40:49 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 03:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <20110605220125.GA7436@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <430851.58066.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: well I think we would need a good C hacker (very good), I guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea to think in mobility I believe many others are working towards that, perhaps is time to us to do it. http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is client, client for that, ... If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be start to think what is better to start with, anyway I have not heard of something like mobile web development environment and so if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be in Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part of current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, fortunately there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in an University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert in arabic language (see: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue for interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you surely know that internet has support now for that kind of url, we may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as well, hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling is that they sort of like the language. Thanks in advance for all your comments on that --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > Hi all: > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to > understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific > implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having > C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of > that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low > level C-- is good to start with, you might see another > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was > ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even > further to interact with that language, us here just need > the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), > something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it lacks > support. As far as I know, > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe and > that's about it. Several > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but that > isn't really good enough. > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup on > gmane. THe project looks > moribund. > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- > project, but I'm really not > sure how to do it. > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > -- hendrik > > From hosking at cs.purdue.edu Tue Jun 7 03:00:24 2011 From: hosking at cs.purdue.edu (Tony Hosking) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 21:00:24 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: Hoping to look into this very soon... On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:48 PM, Mika Nystrom wrote: > Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 9 18:04:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 17:04:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <430851.58066.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <657794.25662.qm@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: it is that there is an actual compiler that using Modula-3 M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object code generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and mostly LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the wish of C is just out there :) Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate additional target and have fun: http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain infrastructure. ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the hardest part?) If you may please take a look, thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > Hi all: > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very good), I > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea to > think in mobility I believe many others are working towards > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is > client, client for that, ... > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be start to > think what is better to start with, anyway I have not heard > of something like mobile web development environment and so > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be in > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part of > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, fortunately > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in an > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert in > arabic language (see: > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue for > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you surely > know that internet has support now for that kind of url, we > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as well, > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling is > that they sort of like the language. > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > escribi?: > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > Hi all: > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to > > understand that we don't want the RT to depend on > specific > > implementations, but to be portable really and truly, > having > > C underneath makes just another thing makes us to > depend on > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), > instead of > > that, a clean low level but truly independent platform > low > > level C-- is good to start with, you might see > another > > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar > (Modula-3 was > > ported to it), just that their idea was to make this > even > > further to interact with that language, us here just > need > > the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't > deny > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is > C--), > > something I don't know it's quite platform dependent > in > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that > BTW). > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to > SPIN > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in > a > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it > lacks > > support. As far as I know, > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe > and > > that's about it. Several > > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but > that > > isn't really good enough. > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup > on > > gmane. THe project looks > > moribund. > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- > > project, but I'm really not > > sure how to do it. > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 10 17:42:12 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 16:42:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <657794.25662.qm@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <446702.36221.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate and low level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low level debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't know when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, available for their internal use). Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, I refer FYI one: http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf Similar to others that may be available Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if you may tell me whether m3cg currently generates private structures or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, this is because if the former or the later we then have a lot of common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's PhD thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below url, by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man page): http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 (and doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents that, but formalizes through a description layer, but given compiler comparison available documentation in [2], we could be able to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis proposes it (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another Module implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In fact XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both target machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 compiler (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which generates C: http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like Boyland thesis): http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language machine and adding some persistence capabilities (a functional language stack based virtual machine): http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz Thanks in advance [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of compiler components,? University of California, Berkeley, 1996. [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > Hi all: > it is that there is an actual compiler that using Modula-3 > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object code > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and mostly > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the wish of > C is just out there :) > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate additional > target and have fun: > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain > infrastructure. > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the hardest > part?) > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > Hi all: > > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very > good), I > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea > to > > think in mobility I believe many others are working > towards > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is > > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is > > client, client for that, ... > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be > start to > > think what is better to start with, anyway I have not > heard > > of something like mobile web development environment > and so > > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be > in > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part > of > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, > fortunately > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in > an > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert > in > > arabic language (see: > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue > for > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you > surely > > know that internet has support now for that kind of > url, we > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as > well, > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling > is > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > > Hi all: > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need > to > > > understand that we don't want the RT to depend > on > > specific > > > implementations, but to be portable really and > truly, > > having > > > C underneath makes just another thing makes us > to > > depend on > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), > > instead of > > > that, a clean low level but truly independent > platform > > low > > > level C-- is good to start with, you might see > > another > > > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar > > (Modula-3 was > > > ported to it), just that their idea was to make > this > > even > > > further to interact with that language, us here > just > > need > > > the portable low level interfaces same way (I > don't > > deny > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally > is > > C--), > > > something I don't know it's quite platform > dependent > > in > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say > that > > BTW). > > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C > idiom to > > SPIN > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same > in > > a > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it > > lacks > > > support. As far as I know, > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 > processoe > > and > > > that's about it. Several > > > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, > but > > that > > > isn't really good enough. > > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- > newsgroup > > on > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > moribund. > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the > C-- > > > project, but I'm really not > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 10 21:46:29 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 20:46:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <446702.36221.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <735889.66315.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and here it is (work in progress) in Modula-3 a JVM target compiler (maybe later another VM since UNSAFE is nop in JVM) to create another language (see for the later: http://xerxys.de/index.php?title=Discussion ) : http://www.xerxys.org/index.php?title=Xm3 So the all dream about low level code in Modula-3 is nice, is just closer each time I guess. I wouldn't be surprised they even know the ARX OS, since there they coded everything in Modula-2+, so it's believable (more than SPIN) was (they always run in protected mode, so, I guess this would prove that safe codes needs not to live necessarily in kernel, though SPIN was, but to protect itself from others clients). Anyway, ARX coded even C runtime, so, it's not that surprising they did that yet it's wonderful. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 10:42 > Hi all: > besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate and low > level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low level > debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't know > when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, > available for their internal use). > Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, I > refer FYI one: > http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf > Similar to others that may be available > > Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if you may > tell me whether m3cg currently generates private structures > or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, this is > because if the former or the later we then have a lot of > common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's PhD > thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below url, > by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man page): > > http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf > > Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 (and > doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents that, but > formalizes through a description layer, but given compiler > comparison available documentation in [2], we could be able > to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis proposes it > (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another Module > implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In fact > XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both target > machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 compiler > (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: > http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages > > Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which generates > C: > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz > > or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like > Boyland thesis): > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf > > Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language machine and > adding some persistence capabilities (a functional language > stack based virtual machine): > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz > > > Thanks in advance > > [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of compiler > components,? University of California, Berkeley, 1996. > > [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 > > > > --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > > Hi all: > > it is that there is an actual compiler that using > Modula-3 > > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object > code > > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and > mostly > > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the > wish of > > C is just out there :) > > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate > additional > > target and have fun: > > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and > > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain > > infrastructure. > > > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code > > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the > hardest > > part?) > > > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > > Hi all: > > > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very > > good), I > > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good > idea > > to > > > think in mobility I believe many others are > working > > towards > > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think > idea is > > > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile > web is > > > client, client for that, ... > > > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may > be > > start to > > > think what is better to start with, anyway I have > not > > heard > > > of something like mobile web development > environment > > and so > > > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort > would be > > in > > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that > part > > of > > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, > > fortunately > > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and > Professor in > > an > > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's > expert > > in > > > arabic language (see: > > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > > ), it might that she can give us some help or a > clue > > for > > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since > you > > surely > > > know that internet has support now for that kind > of > > url, we > > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends > as > > well, > > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My > feeling > > is > > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 > from > > > trunk. > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > > > Hi all: > > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would > need > > to > > > > understand that we don't want the RT to > depend > > on > > > specific > > > > implementations, but to be portable really > and > > truly, > > > having > > > > C underneath makes just another thing makes > us > > to > > > depend on > > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best > idea), > > > instead of > > > > that, a clean low level but truly > independent > > platform > > > low > > > > level C-- is good to start with, you might > see > > > another > > > > implementation of this idea in portable > Cedar > > > (Modula-3 was > > > > ported to it), just that their idea was to > make > > this > > > even > > > > further to interact with that language, us > here > > just > > > need > > > > the portable low level interfaces same way > (I > > don't > > > deny > > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe > ideally > > is > > > C--), > > > > something I don't know it's quite platform > > dependent > > > in > > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can > say > > that > > > BTW). > > > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal > C > > idiom to > > > SPIN > > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the > same > > in > > > a > > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, > but it > > > lacks > > > > support. As far as I know, > > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 > > processoe > > > and > > > > that's about it. Several > > > > others have been mentioned as being nearly > ready, > > but > > > that > > > > isn't really good enough. > > > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- > > newsgroup > > > on > > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > > moribund. > > > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life > into the > > C-- > > > > project, but I'm really not > > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 11 04:51:24 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 03:51:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <735889.66315.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <560878.1847.qm@web29710.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I wonder how hard would be to evolve current JVM to Java jigsaw modularity system, it would be handy if not before we can support them, besides having such separate compilation support we could even re target the system easier than before, anyway it still lacks time, Java is through its process to do it, then other tools, static and dynamic I guess will need to be updated, ESC/Java, even before that if we may get somehow their main test suite would be wonderful to test whether we could support them and compare their results on their own ones. If that's the case we can give it a try to support them if really are interested in that. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 14:46 > Hi all: > and here it is (work in progress) in Modula-3 a JVM target > compiler (maybe later another VM since UNSAFE is nop in JVM) > to create another language (see for the later: > http://xerxys.de/index.php?title=Discussion > > ) : > http://www.xerxys.org/index.php?title=Xm3 > > So the all dream about low level code in Modula-3 is nice, > is just closer each time I guess. > > I wouldn't be surprised they even know the ARX OS, since > there they coded everything in Modula-2+, so it's believable > (more than SPIN) was (they always run in protected mode, so, > I guess this would prove that safe codes needs not to live > necessarily in kernel, though SPIN was, but to protect > itself from others clients). Anyway, ARX coded even C > runtime, so, it's not that surprising they did that yet it's > wonderful. > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 10:42 > > Hi all: > > besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate > and low > > level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low > level > > debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't > know > > when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, > > available for their internal use). > > Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, > I > > refer FYI one: > > http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf > > Similar to others that may be available > > > > Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if > you may > > tell me whether m3cg currently generates private > structures > > or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, > this is > > because if the former or the later we then have a lot > of > > common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's > PhD > > thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below > url, > > by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man > page): > > > > http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf > > > > Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 > (and > > doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents > that, but > > formalizes through a description layer, but given > compiler > > comparison available documentation in [2], we could be > able > > to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis > proposes it > > (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another > Module > > implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In > fact > > XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both > target > > machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 > compiler > > (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: > > http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages > > > > Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which > generates > > C: > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz > > > > or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like > > Boyland thesis): > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf > > > > Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language > machine and > > adding some persistence capabilities (a functional > language > > stack based virtual machine): > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of > compiler > > components,? University of California, Berkeley, > 1996. > > > > [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 > > > > > > > > --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > > > Hi all: > > > it is that there is an actual compiler that > using > > Modula-3 > > > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to > object > > code > > > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure > and > > mostly > > > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So > the > > wish of > > > C is just out there :) > > > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate > > additional > > > target and have fun: > > > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > > > > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining > and > > > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool > chain > > > infrastructure. > > > > > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > > > > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > > > > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM > code > > > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps > the > > hardest > > > part?) > > > > > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides > D. > > > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 > from > > > trunk. > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > > > Hi all: > > > > well I think we would need a good C hacker > (very > > > good), I > > > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is > good > > idea > > > to > > > > think in mobility I believe many others are > > working > > > towards > > > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I > think > > idea is > > > > recycled here, every word I heard about > mobile > > web is > > > > client, client for that, ... > > > > > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we > may > > be > > > start to > > > > think what is better to start with, anyway I > have > > not > > > heard > > > > of something like mobile web development > > environment > > > and so > > > > if they like idea why not? The biggest > effort > > would be > > > in > > > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix > that > > part > > > of > > > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in > m3core, > > > fortunately > > > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and > > Professor in > > > an > > > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, > she's > > expert > > > in > > > > arabic language (see: > > > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > > > ), it might that she can give us some help > or a > > clue > > > for > > > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all > since > > you > > > surely > > > > know that internet has support now for that > kind > > of > > > url, we > > > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian > friends > > as > > > well, > > > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. > My > > feeling > > > is > > > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on > that > > > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building > CM3 > > from > > > > trunk. > > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all: > > > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you > would > > need > > > to > > > > > understand that we don't want the RT > to > > depend > > > on > > > > specific > > > > > implementations, but to be portable > really > > and > > > truly, > > > > having > > > > > C underneath makes just another thing > makes > > us > > > to > > > > depend on > > > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the > best > > idea), > > > > instead of > > > > > that, a clean low level but truly > > independent > > > platform > > > > low > > > > > level C-- is good to start with, you > might > > see > > > > another > > > > > implementation of this idea in > portable > > Cedar > > > > (Modula-3 was > > > > > ported to it), just that their idea was > to > > make > > > this > > > > even > > > > > further to interact with that language, > us > > here > > > just > > > > need > > > > > the portable low level interfaces same > way > > (I > > > don't > > > > deny > > > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe > > ideally > > > is > > > > C--), > > > > > something I don't know it's quite > platform > > > dependent > > > > in > > > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who > can > > say > > > that > > > > BTW). > > > > > Even SPIN did transfered their > ideal > > C > > > idiom to > > > > SPIN > > > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later > did the > > same > > > in > > > > a > > > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in > C#) > > > > > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code > language, > > but it > > > > lacks > > > > > support. As far as I know, > > > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit > x86 > > > processoe > > > > and > > > > > that's about it. Several > > > > > others have been mentioned as being > nearly > > ready, > > > but > > > > that > > > > > isn't really good enough. > > > > > There hasn't been much activity on the > C-- > > > newsgroup > > > > on > > > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > > > moribund. > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing > life > > into the > > > C-- > > > > > project, but I'm really not > > > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:07:51 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:07:51 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in order to further illustrate my point, here are some examples: modula3 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula3 modula2 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula2&aq=f surprisingly, modula2 has more information available! perhaps a short video explaining the motivation behind modula, and why to use it instead of other languages, would be a useful asset, don't you guys think so? 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. > > anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if anyone > has a link for modula videotutorials? > > if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 > videotutorials? > > the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, but > could be served from it. > > if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear > many doubts. > > I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything interesting, > or relevant for that matter. > > I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, > but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires > wizardry to work). > then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, > > nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I > need. > > if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna > have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), > > but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. > > > Any Ideas? > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:10:51 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:10:51 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: as silly as this might appear, this is what I think modula3 needs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqph8VGCi40 do you guys think this is a good idea? 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > in order to further illustrate my point, here are some examples: > > > modula3 > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula3 > > modula2 > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula2&aq=f > > surprisingly, > modula2 has more information available! > > perhaps a short video explaining the motivation behind modula, and why to > use it instead of other languages, would be a useful asset, don't you guys > think so? > > > 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > >> hi everyone, this is my first post. >> >> since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. >> >> it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. >> on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. >> >> anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if >> anyone has a link for modula videotutorials? >> >> if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 >> videotutorials? >> >> the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, >> but could be served from it. >> >> if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear >> many doubts. >> >> I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything >> interesting, or relevant for that matter. >> >> I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, >> but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires >> wizardry to work). >> then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, >> >> nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I >> need. >> >> if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna >> have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), >> >> but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. >> >> >> Any Ideas? >> >> >> -- >> 312-444-2124 >> 301-578-7884 >> >> >> > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:04:36 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:04:36 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Message-ID: hi everyone, this is my first post. since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if anyone has a link for modula videotutorials? if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 videotutorials? the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, but could be served from it. if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear many doubts. I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything interesting, or relevant for that matter. I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires wizardry to work). then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I need. if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. Any Ideas? -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Sat Jun 11 23:32:17 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:32:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > I teach CS at a class, and I'm?interested?in using it as a teaching tool, but given its current state (hard to install, > documentation terse, requires wizardry to work). > then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, > > nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I need. > > if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a > spanish-speaking audience), I taught Modula-3 for mathematicians some years ago and prepared a script for that lecture in German. I do not know, whether this helps you. I could send you the LaTeX files. However I found that it is not a good idea to follow this script closely in a lecture, nonetheless I think it is good for reference. I think that a lot of practicing is better. And of course simple installation and certainly a video tutorial would help. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sun Jun 12 03:38:46 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:38:46 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 04:04:36PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. Interesting, there's a .deb for AMD64 (which seems to be 5.8.6), but not for LINUXLIBC6, the 32-bit Intel platform (where there are .tgz's for 5.8.5). So if yout system is 32-but, you'll have to go the .tgz route. See http://www.opencm3.net/releng/download.html -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 12 04:39:12 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 02:39:12 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> References: , <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: It's there. http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb - Jay > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:38:46 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 04:04:36PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. > > Interesting, there's a .deb for AMD64 (which seems to be 5.8.6), but not > for LINUXLIBC6, the 32-bit Intel platform (where there are .tgz's for > 5.8.5). So if yout system is 32-but, you'll have to go the .tgz route. > > See http://www.opencm3.net/releng/download.html > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Wed Jun 15 21:28:35 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the postgres path. From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 21:45:16 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:45:16 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , Message-ID: Remove postgres from the system_libs and/or system_liborder in the config file, if you don't have postgres. And then the postgres package should check for existance in system_libs/system_liborder and do nothing if not present. It might not currently. But this pattern is used some and works somewhat reasonably, but not perfectly. If you later do install postgres, you get to go back and reedit the config file -- not good. Imagine what the automation looks like -- the order you install packages should not affect the outcome -- so such automatic steps have to be rerun whenever anything is installed, or some optimized form of that. Surely some package systems have addressed this, but we don't interoperate with them, it's non-trivial and platform-dependent work... Besides that, there's a certain dumbness. Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost nothing -- just the headers and a list of symbols in libfoo.so, not the actual code for libfoo.so. That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewhere. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:28:35 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > > > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? > > It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres > bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the > postgres path. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 21:49:26 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:49:26 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: hello everyone. this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: do you want postgress integration (optional)? >no if( YES ) please provide the path else you have chosen not to integrate at this point. if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, http://example.com/instructions end if instead of: do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? >nope ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice addition to the .deb also chaning the default so that it actually points where a recent postgress installation is, would be nice as well, but I guess this is too much trouble, for a .deb file that everyone should know how to crack-open, edit, and then run without a problem, I mean, how many lines of code is it anyway? 2011/6/15 Henning Thielemann > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional >> component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? >> > > It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres > bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the > postgres path. > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Wed Jun 15 22:08:55 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > addition to the .deb Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 22:17:11 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:17:11 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , , <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 22:25:37 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:25:37 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL. deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K > I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- > even if some of what it installs won't work. > It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. > postgres and where > editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query > what the config file did. > > Something seems off here. > > > - Jay > > > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > > > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > > addition to the .deb > > > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 15 22:31:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:31:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <765309.11579.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think in that way we could make room for the other (newer) implementation of it, since, what is the extra cost associated with linking to another example driver programs or a simple example more, normally a sort of good example to stress test to see whether the implementation is working or not. Actually the data base libraries are located in the usual path in that kind of systems, and in others it might not be the case but still a good chance is that you can still grab it and install it in the same root directory so it can't be that hard, anyways a real independent platform DBMS could be a terrific project for Modula-3, but whose are gonna make them. I know for instance ARX OS had a DB OS support directly files, "cabinets" and sequences of data as primitives,, may be something like the ML/SQL, you know what I mean, a way to? start to work in databases without too much trouble,? I think there existis, OO DBMS,? OO DBPL, and Structured? DB MS, but nothing like that, perhaps some problem may ARX have had else (relational). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:25 just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 15 23:26:37 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:26:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <765309.11579.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <146407.43186.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: in this regard the original OS/400 was a bit of Modula-2 + plus some ad-hoc extensions (and then rewrited in another language), in fact they studied another one Modula-90K developed at the Moscow Data Processing Center. And if it does matter the PL-SQL has an DIANA/Ada based ADT intermediate code middle end. If they matter to optimize that thing it is perhaps good to think in some adaptation layer with m3tk to be compatible at the intermediate level, see: http://wiki.oracle.com/page/PL%2FSQL If it matter anyway I think there should be some patents already about their ?-code VM, if not we could either look at their AS/400, sort of making in some sense compatible, at least at the language level, that could be awesome. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" , "felipe valdez" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:31 Hi all: I think in that way we could make room for the other (newer) implementation of it, since, what is the extra cost associated with linking to another example driver programs or a simple example more, normally a sort of good example to stress test to see whether the implementation is working or not. Actually the data base libraries are located in the usual path in that kind of systems, and in others it might not be the case but still a good chance is that you can still grab it and install it in the same root directory so it can't be that hard, anyways a real independent platform DBMS could be a terrific project for Modula-3, but whose are gonna make them. I know for instance ARX OS had a DB OS support directly files, "cabinets" and sequences of data as primitives,, may be something like the ML/SQL, you know what I mean, a way to? start to work in databases without too much trouble,? I think there existis, OO DBMS,? OO DBPL, and Structured? DB MS, but nothing like that, perhaps some problem may ARX have had else (relational). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:25 just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Wed Jun 15 23:39:33 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > hello everyone. > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > work, > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > >no > if( YES ) > please provide the path > else > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > http://example.com/instructions > end if > > instead of: > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > >nope > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection with postgress be a separate packate, called something like modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for modula3. The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would be appropriate. -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 23:52:01 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:52:01 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , Message-ID: > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > do you want postgress integration (optional)? I don't want setup to stop and ask me any questions. For multiple reasons: it might not know the answer, my answer might change later in time, it slows things down, the answer shouldn't be difficult for the setup to determine itself, but, that last point is what I claim is platform-dependent.. - Jay From: felipevaldez at gmail.com Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:49:26 -0500 To: lemming at henning-thielemann.de CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 hello everyone. this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: do you want postgress integration (optional)? >noif( YES ) please provide the pathelse you have chosen not to integrate at this point. if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, http://example.com/instructions end if instead of: do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component?>nopeok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice addition to the .deb also chaning the default so that it actually points where a recent postgress installation is, would be nice as well, but I guess this is too much trouble, for a .deb file that everyone should know how to crack-open, edit, and then run without a problem, I mean, how many lines of code is it anyway? 2011/6/15 Henning Thielemann On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the postgres path. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 23:59:23 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:59:23 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , , <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 00:47:44 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. ?? And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. ?- Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Thu Jun 16 00:51:21 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:51:21 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Still -- I want one "Modula-3" .deb per target. More than that is more for some of us to learn to create, more for some of us to learn to use, and more for our potential users to be confused by. Sure, our picky/advanced users will complain that our packaging is too monolithic. I guess, really, a real concern, is if we want to get packages/ports accepted and maintained and regularly rebuilt by distribution maintainers, for that we might need multiple packages. As well, you break things up when they become "too large". Is cm3? Anyway..none of this is a big deal imho. As long as the .deb works w/o postgres installed. - Jay Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 01:10:18 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 00:10:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <245856.94582.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: yes, it seems reasonable, but in cross-development environment, the options are too many, what is the situation respect of that,? I mean to compile for "optional" Scale-C from M3CG and to m3cc in Gcc and friends (PathScale, etc) either M3CG or so it would be wonderful to directly compile and link with just additional C compiler-linker if so or if so C-- assembler. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 17:51 Still -- I want one "Modula-3" .deb per target. More than that is more for some of us to learn to create, more for some of us to learn to use, and more for our potential users to be confused by. Sure, our picky/advanced users will complain that our packaging is too monolithic. I guess, really, a real concern, is if we want to get packages/ports accepted and maintained and regularly rebuilt by distribution maintainers, for that we might need multiple packages. As well, you break things up when they become "too large". Is cm3? Anyway..none of this is a big deal imho. As long as the .deb works w/o postgres installed. ?- Jay Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 #yiv1264870707 .yiv1264870707ExternalClass #yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295 .yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1264870707 .yiv1264870707ExternalClass #yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295 .yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. ?? And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. ?- Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Thu Jun 16 08:01:26 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:01:26 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <20110616060126.CE0721A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Furthermore, there might be problems with code that use postgres. I use it myself (a lot), and I'm not sure where I got the bindings from (they look similar but not identical to what I see in cm3). While it is true that the UNSAFE keyword that introduces PQ.i3 could be taken as license to do all sorts of bad things, there's one particularly bad thing that is far from obvious. It is critical to call Scheduler.DisableSwitching before anything that calls malloc under *some* user threading implementations. (I've never seen a problem on FreeBSD4, but it causes huge problems on AMD64_LINUX.) At the very least there ought to be a comment about this in PQ.i3. Does anyone use this interface and would care to comment? This brings to mind Jay's idea of disabling switching whenever calling an EXTERNAL function. I think this is too big a sledgehammer but something along these lines probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps making it the default but overridable somehow? If it can be done in a backward-compatible way in the pragma itself that might be best.. <*EXTERNAL*><*CLEAN*> but hmm PM3 probably would choke on additional pragmas... Mika Henning Thielemann writes: > >On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > >> is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrate >d with cm3? > >It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres >bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the >postgres path. From mika at async.caltech.edu Thu Jun 16 08:17:59 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:17:59 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , Message-ID: <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Jay K writes: ... >Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. >Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost not= >hing -- just the headers and >a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual code for libfoo.so. >That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewher= >e. ... SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only the .a/.so, the .i3 files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 started shipping the sources, not sure why. Mika From wagner at elegosoft.com Thu Jun 16 12:14:43 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:14:43 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting Mika Nystrom : > Jay K writes: > ... >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost not= >> hing -- just the headers and >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual code for libfoo.so. >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewher= >> e. > ... > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only the .a/.so, the .i3 > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 started shipping the sources, > not sure why. I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and referenced source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. I don't really see how that is related to linking against external libraries though. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 16:43:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com> Message-ID: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > De: Olaf Wagner > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > Jay K writes: > > ... > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > ought to require almost not= > >> hing -- just the headers and > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > code for libfoo.so. > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > works. But maybe not elsewher= > >> e. > > ... > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > started shipping the sources, > > not sure why. > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > referenced > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > external > libraries though. > > Olaf > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > Berlin, Germany > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > http://www.elegosoft.com | > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > From jay.krell at cornell.edu Thu Jun 16 20:27:09 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:27:09 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com>, <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 21:34:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: ?/cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) ?main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ?..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu Jun 16 22:29:42 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:29:42 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110616202942.GA18822@topoi.pooq.com> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 06:27:09PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. Which is why Debian would make the postgres wrapper a separate package, which would depend on potgres. -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 17 00:10:04 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:10:04 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 17 01:11:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. ? (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) ? Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. ?- Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 #yiv1235405760 .yiv1235405760ExternalClass #yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033 .yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1235405760 .yiv1235405760ExternalClass #yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033 .yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: ?/cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) ?main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ?..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 17 01:26:45 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 19:52:24 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:52:24 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > To: , m3devel , Olaf > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs > > You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. > /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? > Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. > Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. > There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the > executable. > All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. > I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. > But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. > > > - Jay > > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to > was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not > really Modula-3) might be available. > > CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet > them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious > if you want to link other libs you might want another model of > pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent > procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup > (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that > is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) > sense if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" < > wagner at elegosoft.com> > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 > > > > > > Daniel, I don't understand you. > We have pretty good support for cross builds. > However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are > often not so easy to build/setup. > We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can > set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. > If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is > easy and minor. > We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. > > Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. > And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. > Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able > to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 > -target=foo,bar. > > > > cm3 knows about "all" targets. > It knows very little about any target, really. > But some. > I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. > This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to > configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. > (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all > targets at once.) > Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet > another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. > > > Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. > There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. > It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. > > > - Jay > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; > wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like > say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible > targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some > others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) > as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. > Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar > ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the > cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could > somehow get into play. > Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, > but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" < > wagner at elegosoft.com> > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 > > > > > > rambly... > > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the > start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres > wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, > not for installing anything. > > On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I > think that was an accident. > The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. > > As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at > doing the very little it does. > And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly > tend to be installed, so that > the probing > around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a > variety of places. > > Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), > user might still > manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. > > Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited > upon install. > AND to that end, there should be a better separation between > simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content > and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the > possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited > > > By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: > > /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick > some extension) > /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) > > main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, > in some order > > > > oops but there I went making things modular! :) > > > ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. > > The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel > files that include > other shared and "gnarlier" files. > > It takes merely like > > SYSTEM_LIBS = ... > > in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. > > We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. > > But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, > AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. > rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. > > ..Jay > > > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > Hi all: > > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC > the vesta CM > system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for > local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides > the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests > whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, > however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another > experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was > Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in > Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many > others obviously more critical than it self. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner > escribi?: > > > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > > ... > > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > > ought to require almost not= > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > > >> e. > > > > ... > > > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like > this: m3ship would ship only > > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > > started shipping the sources, > > > > not sure why. > > > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > > referenced > > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > > external > > > libraries though. > > > > > > Olaf > > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > > Berlin, Germany > > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht > Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110616/8f0ac803/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 21:08:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:08:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 21:50:22 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:50:22 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Hi all: > if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you > save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". > Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll > back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since > their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with > time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a > file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! > BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? > I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. > Thanks in advance > > --- El *lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez * escribi?: > > > De: felipe valdez > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 > > > I also think this is a non- obvious problem. > > in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and > indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in > ubuntu? > > what about: > > $ which postgres > > does that yield good results? > > > > 2011/6/17 > > > > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 > From: Jay K > > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > To: >, > m3devel >, > Olaf > > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs > > You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. > /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? > Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. > Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. > There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the > executable. > All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. > I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. > But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. > > > - Jay > > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com ; > jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to > was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not > really Modula-3) might be available. > > CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet > them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious > if you want to link other libs you might want another model of > pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent > procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup > (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that > is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) > sense if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K > > escribi?: > > De: Jay K > > > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es , > "m3devel" >, > "Olaf" > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 > > > > > > Daniel, I don't understand you. > We have pretty good support for cross builds. > However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are > often not so easy to build/setup. > We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can > set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. > If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is > easy and minor. > We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. > > Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. > And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. > Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able > to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 > -target=foo,bar. > > > > cm3 knows about "all" targets. > It knows very little about any target, really. > But some. > I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. > This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to > configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. > (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all > targets at once.) > Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet > another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. > > > Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. > There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. > It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. > > > - Jay > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com ; > jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like > say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible > targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some > others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) > as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. > Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar > ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the > cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could > somehow get into play. > Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but > it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K > > escribi?: > > De: Jay K > > > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es , > "m3devel" >, > "Olaf" > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 > > > > > > rambly... > > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the > start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres > wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, > not for installing anything. > > On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I > think that was an accident. > The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. > > As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at > doing the very little it does. > And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly > tend to be installed, so that > the probing > around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a > variety of places. > > Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), > user might still > manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. > > Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited > upon install. > AND to that end, there should be a better separation between > simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content > and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the > possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited > > > By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: > > /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some > extension) > /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) > > main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, > in some order > > > > oops but there I went making things modular! :) > > > ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. > > The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel > files that include > other shared and "gnarlier" files. > > It takes merely like > > SYSTEM_LIBS = ... > > in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. > > We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. > > But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, > AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. > rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. > > ..Jay > > > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > Hi all: > > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC > the vesta CM > system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for > local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides > the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests > whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, > however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another > experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was > Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in > Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many > others obviously more critical than it self. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > > Quoting Mika Nystrom > >: > > > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > > ... > > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > > ought to require almost not= > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > > >> e. > > > > ... > > > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like > this: m3ship would ship only > > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > > started shipping the sources, > > > > not sure why. > > > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > > referenced > > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > > external > > > libraries though. > > > > > > Olaf > > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > > Berlin, Germany > > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht > Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110616/8f0ac803/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > *************************************** > > > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 22:30:44 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:30:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <534561.96847.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if so, why you bring the discussion about registry, if not relevant? This is more than that, like application manager, which is dependent by it's ownd efinition, I believe that's why your referent is that just that, so I bring the ARX OS optical disk file system, anyway, so the business is to make an DBMS product to keep the relevant info? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 22:36:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:36:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <534561.96847.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <237815.84510.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: BTW the AX OS was more like Mach than anything else but you are correct, Win are to be POSIX compliant but besides that, there isn't much there, maybe is just my impression if so. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "felipe valdez" CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 15:30 Hi all: if so, why you bring the discussion about registry, if not relevant? This is more than that, like application manager, which is dependent by it's ownd efinition, I believe that's why your referent is that just that, so I bring the ARX OS optical disk file system, anyway, so the business is to make an DBMS product to keep the relevant info? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 23:36:31 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:36:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <494260.13484.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: In terms of OS technologies, yes the idea was quite revolutionary, most of that came frrom Rrichard Cownie, application Manager of the OS: " Other prominent people on ARX were Steve Glassman (window system)" --may he rest in peace, died in alst October,- ", Carl Dellar (filesystem), Jon Gibbons (InterScript-based editor)." They were led in the project by Jim Mitchell, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._Mitchell Trevor Morris and Mick Jordan were the actual compiler duys, very small group but brave group of people! I give you all the email I interchanged with permission of the AM RC: Hi, Hmm, off the top of my head, I don't remember anything called CAMEL -do you have any idea what it was ? ?Something might come back to me. I did work on the other OS project, I think that's the thing called ARX.It was really crazy. ?Development was based in Palo Alto, California,with a bunch of ex-Xerox PARC people led by Jim Mitchell. ?The originalidea was for a brand new incompatible-with-anything-else OS forbusiness computing, using write-once optical disks instead of magnetic,with its own window system, its own transaction-based filesystem,its own editor based on Interscript, and basically anything wacky thatanyone felt like working on. ?And it was all supposed to run on a machinewith 512KByte of DRAM. I went out there for 6 months or so to work on the "Application Manager" -and I had never seen a windowing system, so I had no clue what thehell I was doing. ?There were no documents worth a damn. ?Mitchell wasalways just about to sit down and write the API's for the OS, but itnever happened. ?And they added Unix compatibility as a feature ata late stage, and really no-one had any idea how to do it. The whole thing was being developed using Acorn hardware and software -fileservers based on 6502 processors, the Acorn EcoNet network, andpersonal machines using early ARM boards. ?And there was no sensiblesource code management. ?The most useful thing I did was to write aprogram called "xfertree" which could sync up two file trees across thenetwork with minimal file transfers: if you copied a whole source treethings weren't reliable enough to get it done :-( And the whole thing was supposed to use Modula-2+, with heavy useof exceptions ... but the compiler was being developed at the same timeand didn't have the exception features yet ... A total mess. ?The project thrashed around for a while until the guysback in England got hardware and started essentially rewriting the BBC OSinto a mixture of ARM assembler and BBC BASIC - and that was whatbecame RISCOS. ?IIRC they hacked together the first version in just acouple of weeks, though there was a lot of evolution later, led byWilliam Stoye, a super-smart guy. Jim Mitchell, and I think many of the other ARX people, went on to joinSun and do another mostly-disastrous OS project, the Spring OS. As I say, I don't really remember "CAMEL", but I was around the ARXdevelopment and if you give me some hints it might jog my memory. Regards??Richard Cownie Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 24 22:55:50 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Message-ID: sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 25 03:15:02 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 27 18:50:12 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 01:31:09 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wagner at elegosoft.com Tue Jun 28 08:38:23 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 08:38:23 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] Advertising, was: Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110628083823.i8x23wyaogc080gk@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting felipe valdez : > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. And this would help? :-) > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? Probably not. None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for much advertising. > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. But you cannot command support in an open source project; people will just do what interests them. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dragisha at m3w.org Tue Jun 28 13:18:23 2011 From: dragisha at m3w.org (=?utf-8?Q?Dragi=C5=A1a_Duri=C4=87?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:18:23 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65D98B89-0240-401A-AD24-6A1BA72CD12A@m3w.org> I don't get this... There is easy to install, setup package, for windows? Or I just dreamt about it? Ir maybe not, I remember using it, also :). On Jun 28, 2011, at 1:31 AM, felipe valdez wrote: > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 16:37:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:37:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <65D98B89-0240-401A-AD24-6A1BA72CD12A@m3w.org> Message-ID: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "felipe valdez" CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 06:18 I don't get this... There is easy to install, setup package, for windows? Or I just dreamt about it? Ir maybe not, I remember using it, also :). On Jun 28, 2011, at 1:31 AM, felipe valdez wrote: in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dragisha at m3w.org Tue Jun 28 17:13:18 2011 From: dragisha at m3w.org (=?utf-8?Q?Dragi=C5=A1a_Duri=C4=87?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:13:18 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation. Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > Ji all: > I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. > Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). > > Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 17:48:15 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 10:48:15 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: hi, thanks for your prompt response. 2011/6/28 Dragi?a Duri? > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing > python. > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn > programming this summer. > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the > end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must > think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't > respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present > first). > > this is a fairly interesting question. the more users, the more traction, the more libraries, the more activity, the more stuff to learn, etc. also, the more users, the more real needs, from real users, which might drive the language forward in its usefulness. but, on the other hand, for those who do $work in m3, it would be a bad thing, since a lot of competition would be brought forward, and also a lot of bad code with it (generators, etc). so, the big question, is if it would be a desirable thing, to have a larger userbase. other companies, and language people, DO all the time try to get more people (by doing cool demos and stuff). > Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but > algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! > > I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF > with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries > (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. > the main reason for this to be useful for others, is that if there is a small videotutorial showing how to use it, the barrier of entry gets even lower. with a lot of source code contributed, there is a need for documentation. but still, I guess most would welcome your kind contribution, without any previous conditions. > I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" > class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of > binding automation. > > Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think > Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install > distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), > I agree, perhaps me blaming them for not having it is just me being ignorant of their efforts. but clearly, from the main cm3 page, there isn't a clear path towards a "getting started", it takes work just to setup the engine (for newbies like me at least), this is where a python "batteries included" approach excels at bringing people into the language. > Think Robotics. > > I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack > gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. > > I also agree that m3devel is not the place for the m3newbies, if such list exists, I'd like to join it! (haven't found the URL) if it doesn't, then we should create it in google groups! > To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help > straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, > someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? > > dd > > On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > Ji all: > I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, > user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, > Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, > Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC > (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are > others Algorithm Animation, etc. > Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, > however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original > Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, > the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals > talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). > > Thanks in advance > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 28 17:54:41 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: <20110628155441.GA3406@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn > programming this summer. Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called HtDP), which introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, direct, and gets to the point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches how to think about programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier to learn almost any other programming language. It really focusses on program design, not the arcana of Scheme. I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two in a course is effective even if the main point of the course is teaching another language (yes even though it means there ends up being less time to teach the other language). The book is available for purchase, or for free download. And there's a draft of a second edition available that can start a student off with graphics instead of (or as well as) math. Look at its Wikipedia article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs for further details. The course matches the DrRacket implementation of scheme. Go ask on the Racket mailing list for further advice on deployment. Students can ask there for study hints, too; the list members are helpful in helping the student figure out the problems rather than just giving answers. http://lists.racket-lang.org/ -- hendrik > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python > in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll be easier to understand if they go through the HtDP execrise first. > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't > think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep > to be what we present first). So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. -- hendrik From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 18:46:43 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:46:43 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/6/28 > > > Quoting felipe valdez : > > > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > > Modula-3 > > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their > language > > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to > grow > > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > And this would help? :-) > I think so, since it would lower the entry bar. > > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have > been > > made, to grow the community. > > > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > Probably not. > None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for > much advertising. > > this is a very sad thing to hear. I wonder why... > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. > But you cannot command support in an open source project; people > will just do what interests them. > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, which leads me to think really hard about, given this fact, how did it get so large and complex at all! in fact how did any OS project did got like that! it must really be in the interest of some people! -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 19:00:14 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:00:14 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, > sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe > still there: > > http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? > |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? > |?????? +?? |??? o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, > Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT > 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 > From: felipe valdez > Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to > grow > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > > > > 2011/6/25 > > > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > > From: Jay K > > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > To: m3devel > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > > I believe they both work. > > They have CPU and memory. > > And maybe hard drive. > > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > > it. > > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > > install from CD. > > > > > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > > (NT 4.0). > > > > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave > it > > as Hudson node. > > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > > really. > > > > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very > slow. > > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > > But I might set those back up. > > > > > > - Jay > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > > Tru64 > > To: m3devel , Jay K > > Message-ID: > > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi all: > > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of > its > > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on > each > > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > > AIX > > HW?????? > > > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? > ? > > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | > ?????? > > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? > o? > > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? > o?????? > > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? > |??? > > o > > > > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that > perhaps > > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > > > De: Jay K > > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > Para: "m3devel" > > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > > I believe they both work. > > They have CPU and memory. > > And maybe hard drive. > > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am > mid-replacing > > it. > > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > > install from CD. > > > > > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > > (NT 4.0). > > > > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave > it > > as Hudson node. > > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > > really. > > > > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very > slow. > > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) > and > > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > > But I might set those back up. > > > > > > ?- Jay > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > M3devel mailing list > > M3devel at elegosoft.com > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > > *************************************** > > > > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/50945171/attachment.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 21:34:14 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:34:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <20110628155441.GA3406@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <1309289654.41394.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: in that terms, it's good to check the "how to solve" (most recent version of it I know about) [1] pedagogy, It was "solved" their approach for programs "how to program" e.g HtP in University of Kent [2], see: http://books.google.com/books?id=jqk9hcIrWegC&lpg=PA324&ots=u1NBWS9ZSC&dq=how%20to%20solve%20it%20modula3&pg=PA324#v=onepage&q&f=false The book hot to design programs is not written in Modula-3 either tough they created accompanying material for problem solving, if you may want to check it to compare against HtDP approach for instance, see it here: http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/djb/probSolving.html Another I approach I know about googling was an appealing one at SUNY Stony Brook [3] using "black-box" Bertrand Meyer's book approach [4]: http://books.google.com/books?id=bFIRTXkLT74C&lpg=PA379&vq=Modula-3&dq=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F7241449%2FObjectOriented-Software-Construction&pg=PA379#v=onepage&q&f=false (book's 2nd edition available from scribd.com, see: http.//www.scribd.com/doc/7241449/ObjectOriented-Software-Construction although I don't know about accompanying CD-ROM about. I would like to ask their pupils (how, I don't know, social nets maybe, google survey, fb like or not ) what was the outcome or results from their students which of the following worked better so we may don't want the worse or at least improve one: My pick would be the first though I think we could create several options, like a combination of both, in that sense, I know University of Miami did research and created animation material, perhaps would be nice to ask them too, Juno-2 would be the perfect full-blown IDE (don't know how to integrate in cm3IDE either could be a matter of of applet, say an oblet, or something like Dragisha's framework too comes to mind) for me for applying the [1] concepts see in an object-oriented geometrical way (though I'm biased toward the tools admitted and some experience as well from yet another Professor in CS area, the one of Lego-machine simulator if you may want to see: https://lsl.unal.edu.co/eidos/index.php#SECTION00032000000000000000 ? in 2.2.3) here: http://www.geometricalgebra.net/ But would need to see what they achieve on time, perhaps another survey could ask them some things further. Thanks in advance [1] Z. Michalewicz and D. B. Fogel, How to Solve It: Modern Heuristics. Springer, 2004. [2] H. Glaser, P. H. Hartel, and H. Kuchen, Programming languages: implementations, logics, and programs?: 9th international symposium, PLILP ?97, including a special track on declarative programming languages in education, Southampton, UK, September 1-3, 1997?: proceedings. Springer, 1997. [3] F. Alt, Advances in computers. Academic Press, 2005. [4] B. Meyer, Object-Oriented Software Construction (Book/CD-ROM), 2nd ed. Prentice Hall, 2000. --- El mar, 28/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:54 > On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM > +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, > programmer-for-hire doing python. > > > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is > willing to learn > > programming this summer. > > Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called HtDP), > which > introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, direct, > and gets to the > point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches how to > think about > programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier to > learn almost any > other programming language. It really focusses on > program design, not > the arcana of Scheme. > > I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two in a > course is > effective even if the main point of the course is teaching > another > language (yes even though it means there ends up being less > time to > teach the other language). > > The book is available for purchase, or for free > download. And there's a > draft of a second edition available that can start a > student off with > graphics instead of (or as well as) math. > > Look at its Wikipedia article, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs > for further details. > > The course matches the DrRacket implementation of > scheme. Go ask on > the Racket mailing list for further advice on > deployment. Students > can ask there for study hints, too; the list members are > helpful in > helping the student figure out the problems rather than > just giving > answers. > http://lists.racket-lang.org/ > > -- hendrik > > > > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they > recommended python > > in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". > > Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll be > easier to > understand if they go through the HtDP execrise first. > > > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using > Modula-3 then we > > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less > Juno-2. (Don't > > think I don't respect these projects, I just think > they are too deep > > to be what we present first). > > So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. > > -- hendrik > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 21:46:40 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:46:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: <1309290400.50035.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: In fact I know about an interested guy in working in the Python Modula-3 scripting language approach rather than Obliq (Dr. John Kominek at CMU), he was checking the last cm3 distro available (hopefully he got it right) to actually make his dream true, it might be interesting to see that too, certainly would be lot of work to do it and to coordinate (so don't get forks but actual good combination of work), but nevertheless achievable in terms of the compactness of this group of Modula-3 folks. Yeah, I want to do it but properly, so let's see how this can go also a leader would be needed, who are the most indicated to take this decisions (I might have some paper about taking the best approach using fuzzy logic, but hopefully won't needed if we are clear). Let me know your thought, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:13 I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation.? Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 22:18:38 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:18:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 To: m3devel , Jay K Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 From: felipe valdez Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 23:04:47 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:04:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309295087.35174.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: indeed the idea is not bad at all neither, since there are many users who want to share every aspect of details on their implementation, the only way to unify this I guess is through something like that a module interface in cm3ide, it could map any relevant data to the server, I don't know how but potentially creating a botnet of people machines that can resemble the spirit of community driven project, whether by gathering people's machines information and retrieving updates, etc. I might try to see whether there is dog food for that I mean we can eat (in the below mentioned project, certainly for others too, SPIN for instance), If we can there must a way of do? it, I know o local project to give underprivileged schools educators a machine to each one (either by old or new to their Professors) and get back any interesting data ideally to maintain their compiler infrastructure working: http://www.computadoresparaeducar.gov.co/website/es/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=359&Itemid=320 (CEDARE center left link certainly interesting) Anyway I would need to ask that too what are their expectations about used stuff, but a donor is very much wanted. Obviously the needed ports are there but certainly miss acknowledge of it since, there are many of the "old" Win* box port's and new ones like mini FreeDOS, so it would it to gather some sort of measurement in the environment and needs and specifications, some of this numbers, like, see: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2615599 http://sites.google.com/site/rugxulo/updates Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 15:30 let us know if after you build your own os, you can fax us the original data. 2011/6/28 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 To: m3devel , Jay K Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 From: felipe valdez Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 00:46:27 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:46:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309290400.50035.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309301187.19492.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: but we can't afford to forget the only reason why Obliq being the first agent language, wasn't picked for Internet scripting language, Professor Abd?n S?nchez Sossa here told me recently it was by a hair that it wasn't picked (it is Modula-3/Obliq so light-weight) for sure it is! There are some dinosaurs out there very scary. But I don't see anything ill in the python out there no that old in itself :) See: http://books.google.com/books?ei=ilUKTvTmDfC00AGwxbyvAQ&ct=result&id=9Io_AQAAIAAJ&dq=modula3+environment&q=modula#search_anchor Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Dragi?a Duri?" CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 14:46 Hi all: In fact I know about an interested guy in working in the Python Modula-3 scripting language approach rather than Obliq (Dr. John Kominek at CMU), he was checking the last cm3 distro available (hopefully he got it right) to actually make his dream true, it might be interesting to see that too, certainly would be lot of work to do it and to coordinate (so don't get forks but actual good combination of work), but nevertheless achievable in terms of the compactness of this group of Modula-3 folks. Yeah, I want to do it but properly, so let's see how this can go also a leader would be needed, who are the most indicated to take this decisions (I might have some paper about taking the best approach using fuzzy logic, but hopefully won't needed if we are clear). Let me know your thought, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:13 I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation.? Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Wed Jun 29 09:34:42 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 00:34:42 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110629073442.540EB1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Some time ago, I shared the details for accessing by anonymous CVS the source code for my Scheme-in-Modula-3 system. It's based on Norvig's JScheme (but as it is in Modula I call it MScheme) and has all the same features (almost-complete version of R4RS) and more. The niftiest bit is that you can call Modula procedures and methods directly from Scheme; you can also override methods in Modula objects with Scheme procedures. That's all done with a stub generator based on the Network Objects stub generator. All that stuff is included. I use the system daily on "mission-critical" applications and it is relatively complete. Documentation, speed, and size of the executable are its weak spots. How to get it: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous at pluto.gcapltd.com:/home/gcap-public-cvs checkout . Mika "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." writes: >--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Hi all: >it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say= > so, so anyone involved can use it: >http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 > >I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance > > >--- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi=F3: > >De: felipe valdez >Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 >Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com >Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 > >to Daniel: > >the message was garbled > > > > >perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL = >? > > > >this is how it appeared in my gmail: > >OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX > > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+------- >DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > > >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + >i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o > > > >not the most readable... > > >to Mr. Jay K=20 > >I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a = >computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. > > >this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a publ= >ic IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a s= >imilar product in both ends. > > >I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a ser= >ver like the one you mention. > > >or maybe a community college or government-run university ? >good luck >I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. > > > > >2011/6/27 > > >Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) > >From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > >Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > > Tru64 > >To: m3devel , Jay K > >Message-ID: > > <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > > > >Hi all: > >completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, si= >cne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still= > there: > >http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/sum= >mary.html > > > >Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, the= >re is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting = >tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > > >Thanks in advance > > > >--- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. = >escribi?: > > > >De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > >Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" > >Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 > > > >Hi all: > >I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 syste= >m on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own = >win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential= > SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or = >if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > > > > >OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+------- > >DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > >i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o > > > > > >I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you co= >uld build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps = >with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > > >Thanks in advance > > > >--- El vie, 24/6/11, > > Jay K escribi?: > > > >De: Jay K > >Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >Para: "m3devel" > >Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > > > > > > >sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > >I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >I believe they both work. > >They have CPU and memory. > >And maybe hard drive. > >? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing = >it. > >And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to inst= >all from CD. > > > > > > > >They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (= >NT 4.0). > > > > > >I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > >Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > >And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it = >as Hudson node. > >? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, real= >ly. > > > > > >We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it woul= >d be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT > > 4.0/Alpha. > >VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow.= > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and = >maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > >I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > >But I might set those back up. > > > > > >?- Jay > > > >-------------- next part -------------- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: 9f44/attachment-0001.htm> > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 2 > >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 > >From: felipe valdez > >Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > >To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > > > >in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > >Modula-3 > >I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > >used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to gro= >w > >the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > > >this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > >made, to grow the community. > > > >is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > > >is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > > > > > > > > >2011/6/25 > > > >> Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > >> m3devel at elegosoft.com > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > >> 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > >> From: Jay K > >> Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> To: m3devel > >> Message-ID: > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > >> > >> > >> sorry if this is too repititive. > >> > >> > >> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >> I believe they both work. > >> They have CPU and memory. > >> And maybe hard drive. > >> one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > >> it. > >> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > >> install from CD. > >> > >> > >> > >> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > >> (NT 4.0). > >> > >> > >> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > >> > >> Cost is that we split shipping to US. > >> > >> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave i= >t > >> as Hudson node. > >> I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > >> really. > >> > >> > >> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > >> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > >> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slo= >w. > >> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >> Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >> Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > >> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > >> > >> I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >> Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >> PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > >> > >> > >> But I might set those back up. > >> > >> > >> - Jay > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13= >/attachment.html > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 2 > >> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > >> From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > >> Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > >> Tru64 > >> To: m3devel , Jay K > >> Message-ID: > >> <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > >> > >> Hi all: > >> I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > >> system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of i= >ts > >> own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > >> potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on ea= >ch > >> row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > >> > >> OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > >> AIX > >> HW?????? > >> -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+= >----------+-----------+------- > >> DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +?= > ? > >> ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > >> i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????= >? > >> x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > >> i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? = >o? > >> ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o???= >??? > >> |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |?= >?? > >> o > >> > >> > >> I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > >> could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perh= >aps > >> with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > >> > >> Thanks in advance > >> > >> --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > >> > >> De: Jay K > >> Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> Para: "m3devel" > >> Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> sorry if this is too repititive. > >> > >> > >> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >> I believe they both work. > >> They have CPU and memory. > >> And maybe hard drive. > >> ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacin= >g > >> it. > >> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > >> install from CD. > >> > >> > >> > >> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > >> (NT 4.0). > >> > >> > >> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > >> > >> Cost is that we split shipping to US. > >> > >> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave i= >t > >> as Hudson node. > >> ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > >> really. > >> > >> > >> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > >> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > >> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slo= >w. > >> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >> ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >> ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) an= >d > >> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > >> > >> I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >> ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >> ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > >> > >> > >> But I might set those back up. > >> > >> > >> ?- Jay > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672= >/attachment-0001.htm > > > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> M3devel mailing list > >> M3devel at elegosoft.com > >> https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >> > >> > >> End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > >> *************************************** > >> > > > > > > > >-- > >312-444-2124 > >301-578-7884 > >-------------- next part -------------- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: 5171/attachment.htm> > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >M3devel mailing list > >M3devel at elegosoft.com > >https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > > > >End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 > >*************************************** > > > > >--=20 >312-444-2124301-578-7884 > > > > >--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">Hi all:
it's a good idea, but nicer to use= > the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it= >:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690

I will see who can pro= >vide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance


--- El ma= >r, 28/6/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi= >=F3:
n-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">
De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gma= >il.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30
Par= >a: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00

<= >div id=3D"yiv1784092051">to Daniel:>
new', monospace">
tyle-span" > face=3D"'courier new', monospace">the message was garbled
> >

ass=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
_quote">perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us i= >n a URL ?
>
>

84092051gmail_quote">this is how it appeared in my gmail:
=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
ote">
r-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">OS??= >????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIXr> > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+-------
DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |= >??????? o??????? | ???
o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |= >?? +??????
> >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????= >? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? |
_quote">pse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> ?????? o? = >? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????= >? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |?= >?? o
> >

51gmail_quote">
not the mo= >st readable...

class=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
il_quote"> >to Mr. Jay K
>

51gmail_quote">I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might b= >e in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn lin= >ux or whatever.
> >
this would reduce shippin= >g cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should sti= >ll be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both en= >ds.
> >

51gmail_quote">I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have a= >ccess to a server like the one you mention.
51gmail_quote">
> >or maybe a community college or government-run university ?
=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
ote">good luck

class=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">I'd help you myself, but I live too far = >away, unfortunately.
> >

51gmail_quote">

= >
2011/6/27 < rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:m3devel-request at elegosoft.com" target= >=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosoft.com">m3devel= >-request at elegosoft.com>
> >
lid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Send= > M3devel mailing list submissions to
> =3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel at elegoso= >ft.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> t.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/= >mailman/listinfo/m3devel
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> " target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosoft.com"= >>m3devel-request at elegosoft.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-owner at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel-owner at elegosoft.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
> 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST)
>From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <ilto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddabe= >navidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L,
> Tru64
>To: m3devel <" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel= >@elegosoft.com>, Jay K <.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at co= >rnell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>Message-ID:
> <lClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose= >?to=3D1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com">130919= >3412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>
>Hi all:
>completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, si= >cne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still= > there:
>manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html">http://www.cs.tut.= >fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html
>
>Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, the= >re is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting = >tough to see it on a Chicago/PC!
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>--- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <ymailto=3D"mailto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/comp= >ose?to=3Ddabenavidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:
>
>De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddabenavi= >desd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64> >Para: "m3devel" <.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel at elegosoft.com>, "Jay K" <to:jay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.kr= >ell at cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15
>
>Hi all:
>I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 syste= >m on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own = >win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential= > SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or = >if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS
> > >
>OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX
>HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+-------
>DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ???
> o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +??????
>i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
>i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? |
> ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o
>
>
>I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you co= >uld build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps = >with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>--- El vie, 24/6/11,
> Jay K <get=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.krell at co= >rnell.edu> escribi?:
>
>De: Jay K <target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.krell= >@cornell.edu>
>Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
>Para: "m3devel" <.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel at elegosoft.com>
>Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55
>
>
>
>
>
>sorry if this is too repititive.
>
>
>I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>I believe they both work.
>They have CPU and memory.
>And maybe hard drive.
>? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing = >it.
>And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to inst= >all from CD.
>
>
>
>They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (= >NT 4.0).
>
>
>I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>
>Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>
>And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it = >as Hudson node.
>? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, real= >ly.
>
>
>We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions.r> >NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it woul= >d be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT
> 4.0/Alpha.
>VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow.= > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and = >maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>
>I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>
>
>But I might set those back up.
>
>
>?- Jay
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: <t.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/attachment-0001.htm">= >http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/a= >ttachment-0001.htm>
> > >
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500
>From: felipe valdez <gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfelipevaldez at gmail.co= >m">felipevaldez at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29
>To: _blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel at elegosoft.c= >om
>Message-ID: <-fDhyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DB= >ANLkTinc3Nk9NLQTBbAN-fDhyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com">BANLkTinc3Nk9NLQTBbAN-fD= >hyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>
>in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and> >Modula-3
>I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language<= >br> >used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to gro= >w
>the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows.
>
>this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been= >
>made, to grow the community.
>
>is anybody in this list actively working on this?
>
>is having a larger modula3 community, desirable?
>
>
>
>
>2011/6/25 <ft.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosof= >t.com">m3devel-request at elegosoft.com>
>
>> Send M3devel mailing list submissions to
>> rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel at ele= >gosoft.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> osoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-= >bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> .com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosoft.= >com">m3devel-request at elegosoft.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> om" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-owner at elegosoft.com"= >>m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> >> than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K)
>> 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
>> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= >
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000
>> From: Jay K <l.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">ja= >y.krell at cornell.edu>
>> Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64<= >br> >> To: m3devel <t.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3= >devel at elegosoft.com>
>> Message-ID: <COL101-W5153CD2C4CB5C3B2614650E6520 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>> sorry if this is too repititive.
>>
>>
>> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>> I believe they both work.
>> They have CPU and memory.
>> And maybe hard drive.
>> one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replac= >ing
>> it.
>> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to= >
>> install from CD.
>>
>>
>>
>> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Wind= >ows
>> (NT 4.0).
>>
>>
>> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>>
>> Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>>
>> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leav= >e it
>> as Hudson node.
>> I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space,<= >br> >> really.
>>
>>
>> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versio= >ns.
>> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it= >
>> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha.
>> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very = >slow.
>> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>> Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>> Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) = >and
>> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>>
>> I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>> Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>> PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>>
>>
>> But I might set those back up.
>>
>>
>> - Jay
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> m/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html">http://m= >ail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachmen= >t.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST)
>> From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <=3D"mailto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to= >=3Ddabenavidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>> Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L,> >> Tru64
>> To: m3devel <t.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3= >devel at elegosoft.com>, Jay K <o:jay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.kre= >ll at cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>> <oMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/com= >pose?to=3D1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com">13= >08964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi all:
>> I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3<= >br> >> system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server o= >f its
>> own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through<= >br> >> potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on= > each
>> row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS
>>
>> OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-U= >X |
>> AIX
>> HW??????
>> -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+--------------= >--+----------+-----------+-------
>> DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ?????= > +? ?
>> ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +??????
>> i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ??= >????
>> x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
>> i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ????= >?? o?
>> ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o= >??????
>> |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +??= > |???
>> o
>>
>>
>> I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if y= >ou
>> could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that p= >erhaps
>> with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K <ay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell@= >cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu> escribi?:
>>
>> De: Jay K <edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.= >krell at cornell.edu>
>> Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64r> >> Para: "m3devel" <osoft.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com= >">m3devel at elegosoft.com>
>> Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> sorry if this is too repititive.
>>
>>
>> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>> I believe they both work.
>> They have CPU and memory.
>> And maybe hard drive.
>> ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-repla= >cing
>> it.
>> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to= >
>> install from CD.
>>
>>
>>
>> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Wind= >ows
>> (NT 4.0).
>>
>>
>> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>>
>> Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>>
>> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leav= >e it
>> as Hudson node.
>> ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space,= >
>> really.
>>
>>
>> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versio= >ns.
>> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it= >
>> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha.
>> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very = >slow.
>> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>> ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>> ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo)= > and
>> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>>
>> I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>> ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>> ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>>
>>
>> But I might set those back up.
>>
>>
>> ?- Jay
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> m/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm">http= >://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attac= >hment-0001.htm
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>--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803-- From wagner at elegosoft.com Wed Jun 29 12:37:51 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:37:51 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110629123751.884k79uq0484woss@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting felipe valdez : > 2011/6/28 >> >> Quoting felipe valdez : >> > is anybody in this list actively working on this? >> >> Probably not. >> None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for >> much advertising. > > this is a very sad thing to hear. > I wonder why... Everybody deeply involved in his work or research projects? >> > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? >> >> Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. >> But you cannot command support in an open source project; people >> will just do what interests them. > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, > which leads me to think really hard about, > given this fact, how did it get so large and complex at all! > > in fact how did any OS project did got like that! > > it must really be in the interest of some people! Modula-3 was developed mostly at the Systems Research Center of Digital, though it was never a sold product of them. The code base was always free, and later used in university research and teaching and the base for a commercial distribution (by Critical Mass Inc.), which then was released as open source again some years later. Development was mostly done in university or enterprise research labs; there never was much of an independent user community. There are some dozen users left with very different application areas and interests. Any newcomers are welcome and contributions are greatly appreciated, regardless if of technical of advertising nature. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 16:22:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:22:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309289654.41394.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309357348.20005.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I just saw 6 days before was published yet another one [1] on Polya's method: http://books.google.com/books?id=4QKcaXrVZb0C Thanks in advance [1] U. Daepp and P. Gorkin, Reading, Writing, and Proving: A Closer Look at Mathematics. Springer, 2011. --- El mar, 28/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 14:34 > Hi all: > in that terms, it's good to check the "how to solve" (most > recent version of it I know about) [1] pedagogy, It was > "solved" their approach for programs "how to program" e.g > HtP in University of Kent [2], see: > http://books.google.com/books?id=jqk9hcIrWegC&lpg=PA324&ots=u1NBWS9ZSC&dq=how%20to%20solve%20it%20modula3&pg=PA324#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > The book hot to design programs is not written in Modula-3 > either tough they created accompanying material for problem > solving, if you may want to check it to compare against HtDP > approach for instance, see it here: > http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/djb/probSolving.html > > Another I approach I know about googling was an appealing > one at SUNY Stony Brook [3] using "black-box" Bertrand > Meyer's book approach [4]: > http://books.google.com/books?id=bFIRTXkLT74C&lpg=PA379&vq=Modula-3&dq=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F7241449%2FObjectOriented-Software-Construction&pg=PA379#v=onepage&q&f=false > > (book's 2nd edition available from scribd.com, see: > http.//www.scribd.com/doc/7241449/ObjectOriented-Software-Construction > > although I don't know about accompanying CD-ROM about. > > I would like to ask their pupils (how, I don't know, social > nets maybe, google survey, fb like or not ) what was the > outcome or results from their students which of the > following worked better so we may don't want the worse or at > least improve one: > > My pick would be the first though I think we could create > several options, like a combination of both, in that sense, > I know University of Miami did research and created > animation material, perhaps would be nice to ask them too, > Juno-2 would be the perfect full-blown IDE (don't know how > to integrate in cm3IDE either could be a matter of of > applet, say an oblet, or something like Dragisha's framework > too comes to mind) for me for applying the [1] concepts see > in an object-oriented geometrical way (though I'm biased > toward the tools admitted and some experience as well from > yet another Professor in CS area, the one of Lego-machine > simulator if you may want to see: > https://lsl.unal.edu.co/eidos/index.php#SECTION00032000000000000000 > ? > in 2.2.3) here: > http://www.geometricalgebra.net/ > > But would need to see what they achieve on time, perhaps > another survey could ask them some things further. > > Thanks in advance > > [1] Z. Michalewicz and D. B. Fogel, How to Solve It: Modern > Heuristics. Springer, 2004. > > [2] H. Glaser, P. H. Hartel, and H. Kuchen, Programming > languages: implementations, logics, and programs?: 9th > international symposium, PLILP ?97, including a > special track on declarative programming languages in > education, Southampton, UK, September 1-3, 1997?: > proceedings. Springer, 1997. > > [3] F. Alt, Advances in computers. Academic Press, 2005. > > [4] B. Meyer, Object-Oriented Software Construction > (Book/CD-ROM), 2nd ed. Prentice Hall, 2000. > > > > > --- El mar, 28/6/11, Hendrik Boom > escribi?: > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue > 29 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:54 > > On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM > > +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > > > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, > > programmer-for-hire doing python. > > > > > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son > who is > > willing to learn > > > programming this summer. > > > > Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called > HtDP), > > which > > introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, > direct, > > and gets to the > > point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches > how to > > think about > > programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier > to > > learn almost any > > other programming language. It really focusses > on > > program design, not > > the arcana of Scheme. > > > > I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two > in a > > course is > > effective even if the main point of the course is > teaching > > another > > language (yes even though it means there ends up being > less > > time to > > teach the other language). > > > > The book is available for purchase, or for free > > download. And there's a > > draft of a second edition available that can start a > > student off with > > graphics instead of (or as well as) math. > > > > Look at its Wikipedia article, > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs > > for further details. > > > > The course matches the DrRacket implementation of > > scheme. Go ask on > > the Racket mailing list for further advice on > > deployment. Students > > can ask there for study hints, too; the list members > are > > helpful in > > helping the student figure out the problems rather > than > > just giving > > answers. > > http://lists.racket-lang.org/ > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, > they > > recommended python > > > in the end and the best argument I saw was: > PyGTK". > > > > Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll > be > > easier to > > understand if they go through the HtDP execrise > first. > > > > > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users > using > > Modula-3 then we > > > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, > less > > Juno-2. (Don't > > > think I don't respect these projects, I just > think > > they are too deep > > > to be what we present first). > > > > So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. > > > > -- hendrik > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 16:51:35 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:51:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <20110629123751.884k79uq0484woss@mx0.elegosoft.com> Message-ID: <1309359095.55345.YahooMailClassic@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: just in case matters there were coins about the same time Wirth and fellows wrote their ideas on paper: http://books.google.com/books?ei=5zcLTpCmGpGUtwfflY1b&ct=result&id=g4hVAAAAMAAJ&dq=modula3+computer+language&q=modula-3#search_anchor by Namir Clement Shammas, although totally unrelated by the way it describes as I can see so far, nevertheless perhaps considering this ideas could be a better way of realize what the world was like in that time, and why they should be taken on account just in case it matters today. Still others follow their own "Paradise" dreams like: http://books.google.com/books?id=IDPjVzBRXFIC&lpg=PA21&dq=modula3%20modula2&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false But agree Modula-3 pay it's bills: http://books.google.com/books?ei=wjoLTrmOHdGgtgelp6hp&ct=result&id=UdtQAAAAMAAJ&dq=exceptions+modula3&q=modula#search_anchor Interesting enough is that there was a Turbo Modula-2, I believe was object oriented, never saw anything of its code. What do you think of them? Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > De: Olaf Wagner > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 05:37 > Quoting felipe valdez : > > > 2011/6/28 > >> > >> Quoting felipe valdez : > > >> > is anybody in this list actively working on > this? > >> > >> Probably not. > >> None of the regular users seems to have both time > and interest for > >> much advertising. > > > > this is a very sad thing to hear. > > I wonder why... > > Everybody deeply involved in his work or research > projects? > > >> > is having a larger modula3 community, > desirable? > >> > >> Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is > much appreciated. > >> But you cannot command support in an open source > project; people > >> will just do what interests them. > > > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, > > which leads me to think really hard about, > > given this fact, how did it get so large and complex > at all! > > > > in fact how did any OS project did got like that! > > > > it must really be in the interest of some people! > > Modula-3 was developed mostly at the Systems Research > Center of > Digital, though it was never a sold product of them. The > code base > was always free, and later used in university research and > teaching > and the base for a commercial distribution (by Critical > Mass Inc.), > which then was released as open source again some years > later. > > Development was mostly done in university or enterprise > research labs; > there never was much of an independent user community. > > There are some dozen users left with very different > application areas > and interests. > > Any newcomers are welcome and contributions are greatly > appreciated, > regardless if of technical of advertising nature. > > Olaf > -- > Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > http://www.elegosoft.com | > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 29 23:55:34 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:55:34 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > completely forgot the Win9* systems That is probably best -- to just forget it. > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! But if you really want, many releases of Modula-3 should work fine on Win9x. And if anyone really seriously wants it, the current code can easily be tested and fixed to work on Win9x. There's no point in Cygwinb20. That is really really old. Cygwin 1.5 works on Win9x. Though 1.7 is current and doesn't work on Win9x. I really don't have much time lately to install anything on these systems before shipping them out. I'm too busy with other things, including even some Modula-3 stuff maybe. - Jay Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp o | o | o | o | + | x | + | + i86pc o | o | o | + | x | x | x | + i86smp o | o | o | + | o | x | x | + Ppc o | o | o | + | o | x | + | o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu Jun 30 03:35:54 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:35:54 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: References: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > completely forgot the Win9* systems > > That is probably best -- to just forget it. I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it on once in a blue moon. It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would really be useful, I could try Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the effort. > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I tried running it once, and it was most mysterious. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 30 17:09:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:09:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <1309446540.70332.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: perhaps, you could check if this recording makes sense, i says at the beginning is an excerpt (So a good idea would get a copy of the original). http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=8026 Anyway, the major critics of this is the supposed to be low speed of execution, I think if this run on a Win9* pc, I can just to conclude that: 1. The system is functional enough to run in a 199* system. 2. The critics are true if the system is stress-tested (see 1 for this info) 3. The idea behind the constraint solver is not enough compiler-enabled optimized for today's applied benchmarks If the above is true then there might be some techniques to make that happen In example tune the compiler as they did in development. As it hasn't been too much updated besides a JVM-based backend there is a big question how much of this is good to pick, but JVM-based backend http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html doesn't handle the constraint solver at all. So we might check what have been the main constraint solver techniques developed for that purpose (lately logic analyzers, but sold as a kit, perhaps doable on Modula-3, perhaps and ASIP but can we build one of such, perhaps yes with some library called m3tools): http://members.tripod.com/srini_seetharam/thesis.pdf Back indee in DEC-SRC they offered to license the toolkit in other platforms, perhaps somebody would asked about it, I'm not aware of that but it seems they could seek that in the future. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 20:35 > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM > +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > > > completely forgot the Win9* > systems > > > > That is probably best -- to just > forget it. > > I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it > on once in a blue moon. > It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would > really be useful, I could try > Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the > effort. > > > > > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if > the most important of tools is that, > > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it > runs smoothly, > > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I > tried running it once, and > it was most mysterious. > > -- hendrik > From rcolebur at SCIRES.COM Thu Jun 30 20:35:36 2011 From: rcolebur at SCIRES.COM (Coleburn, Randy) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:35:36 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> References: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: Back in the early days of cm3, I did run some Modula3 stuff on Windows 95/98 before NT4.0. My recollection is that Win98 fared better than Win95, but that all was much better on NT4.0. I seem to recall having more trouble with multithreaded programs on Win9x and also the garbage collector. I think you had to run with @M3novm parameter to disable virtual motion on Win9x. Regards, Randy Coleburn -----Original Message----- From: Hendrik Boom [mailto:hendrik at topoi.pooq.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 9:36 PM To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > completely forgot the Win9* systems > > That is probably best -- to just forget it. I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it on once in a blue moon. It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would really be useful, I could try Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the effort. > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I tried running it once, and it was most mysterious. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 30 21:00:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:00:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309460441.46490.YahooMailClassic@web29707.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if you ask me why then would I share the question with you, can you make this graphic in postcript easily in how many seconds can you draw this document p13 in the screen in ps or eps: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.7537 If you can build such quicker than and more than that edit -> compile -> view quickly then you're ready to go. Think in ULSI and VLSI systems doing this for the work stuff (if anything us included) . The Ps (already present) or JVM backends (see: http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html ) are quick enough, but to what it makes that is the constraint solver, which is indeed very advanced combining symbolic and numerical solving using provided initial approximation. So at least less fpu cycles to help the later are welcome (e.g any hardware speed-up might solve this better). I'm not really sure how much of this does Modula-3 as for I know in i86pc boxes it doesn't really do that (i.e it doesn't accelerate FPU in the intended way, e.g doesn't handle in same cycles as you said normally), but SGI, DEC, perhaps PA-RISC, and PPC are other history (this makes again more important to keep this older machine ports, as for reference points, as I don't have such good machines to keep it alive with some cm3ide server on).? Experimental platforms might be for reference as well: http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw32/dobson.html Anyway to test i86pc or possible *DOS implementations will need something like NTHydra or so UI client of MIPSr4000, Alpha, i86pc in NT, or so to do in-situ testing and others alike as well as Zeus sessions available (see man Juno.1 for more details). Thanks in advance --- El jue, 30/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Fecha: jueves, 30 de junio, 2011 10:55 2011/6/30 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: perhaps, you could check if this recording makes sense, i says at the beginning is an excerpt (So a good idea would get a copy of the original). http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=8026 this was actually very intersting and educational! it reminded me of "the mother of all demso", by douglas engelbert. Anyway, the major critics of this is the supposed to be low speed of execution, I think if this run on a Win9* pc, I can just to conclude that: 1. The system is functional enough to run in a 199* system. certainly, one could conclude that... but just trowing more cycles at it, doesn't make it faster... 2. The critics are true if the system is stress-tested (see 1 for this info) 3. The idea behind the constraint solver is not enough compiler-enabled optimized for today's applied benchmarks If the above is true then there might be some techniques to make that happen In example tune the compiler as they did in development. in this case, I don't think performance is the responsability of the compiler writers, but of the sofwtare writer. As it hasn't been too much updated besides a JVM-based backend there is a big question how much of this is good to pick, but JVM-based backend http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html doesn't handle the constraint solver at all. So we might check what have been the main constraint solver techniques developed for that purpose (lately logic analyzers, but sold as a kit, perhaps doable on Modula-3, perhaps and ASIP but can we build one to what end, would we build one exactly?other than to satisfy this curiosity? does this have a real-world application? I fail to think of one... of such, perhaps yes with some library called m3tools): http://members.tripod.com/srini_seetharam/thesis.pdf Back indee in DEC-SRC they offered to license the toolkit in other platforms, perhaps somebody would asked about it, I'm not aware of that but it seems they could seek that in the future. given that cm3 used to be paid, but now is free, I think the market would go for that which is cheaper.therefore, a commercial implementation, of a not-widely used language, seems to be only desirable, for those who *already* have legacy systems based on such tecnology, and people would probably not "buy" into it, so that they could develop new software, given free (and open source) alternatives. also, since the main use of m3 seems to be research, and researches are often trying to use free sofwtare, and getting away from paid tools, it seems plausible to say, with a certain level of certainty, that this (license tooklit) is very unlikely to happen, in my opinion Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 20:35 > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM > +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > > > completely forgot the Win9* > systems > > > > That is probably best -- to just > forget it. > > I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it > on once in a blue moon. > It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would > really be useful, I could try > Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the > effort. > > > > > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if > the most important of tools is that, > > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it > runs smoothly, > > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I > tried running it once, and > it was most mysterious. > > -- hendrik > -- 312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wagner at elegosoft.com Thu Jun 2 13:21:53 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 13:21:53 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] Installing CM3 on Xubuntu box In-Reply-To: <20110531180345.bbfad895.dukeofperl@ml1.net> References: <20110531180345.bbfad895.dukeofperl@ml1.net> Message-ID: <20110602132153.2hxog5zpekg0ckwg@mail.elegosoft.com> Quoting Duke Normandin : > Hi... > > I'm interested in test-driving a Modula-3 compiler, and perhaps > seriously learning the language. The closest I've come to Modula-3 > is Oberon-2 (oo2c; ETH LNO; and Mike Spivey's OBC) > > I just Dled cm3-src-all-5.8.6-REL.tgz > > From the extracted directory tree, I'm not too sure how to proceed > to build the compiler on my system. I see that you have 3 mailing > lists, but none seem appropriate for noob questions or "How to > install?" questions. Can you direct me to the appropriate newsgroup > or mailing list please. Much obliged! Sorry for the delay, I'm not at home currently and only read my mail now and then. To install CM3, please look at http://www.opencm3.net/, follow the Donwload link and read the installation instructions. If you encounter any problems, the appropriate mailing list is m3devel at elegosoft.com; you will find instructions on how to subscribe in the Resources area of the web presentation. Have fun with Modula-3, Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 3 22:00:13 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 20:00:13 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Message-ID: I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: old x86 laptops old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 ) Mac PowerPC laptops iMac G5 AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) Alphas SPARC RS/6000 SGI Fuel (2) Pretty much everything should go. Prices are very negotiable. It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required. There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS, ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc. I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 4 01:10:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 00:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 02:12:39 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:12:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 03:55:00 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:55:00 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Some work may have been done: > http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html > Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. We are well beyond that. Porting is vastly easier than it used to be. And it wasn't ever really so bad, just tedious and error prone. The primary work is now to test and debug, and often everything just works. Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining portability, besides performance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). Short of that, we did switch to get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads. And sigaltstack on some platforms. OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads, but for userthreads we still hack on the jmpbuf. Generating C would also help. Again I bring up the comparison: consider some random C or C++ program. That uses open/read/write/close. And either X Windows or Win32. And pthreads or Win32. How much work is it to port such a program? Basically none. Esp. if you factor in autoconf. That is where Modula-3 could/should be. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:12:39 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo; there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: old x86 laptops old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 ) Mac PowerPC laptops iMac G5 AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) Alphas SPARC RS/6000 SGI Fuel (2) Pretty much everything should go. Prices are very negotiable. It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required. There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS, ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc. I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 04:06:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:06:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <275325.71499.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and your long-waited wished and dreamed C backend code generator could be at hand: http://www.cminusminus.org/ http://getglue.com/topics/p/c http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~techrep/CS-98-19.ps.Z http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.123.8192 Hopefully some sort of draft of implementation exists for it. Would be nice since the code is still machine level and really portable, so that's even nicer! Have fun (this will make things for porting in Cell phones with Garbage collection support and so on). Also theoretical background is at hand (1), which is nicer again, since translation is smoothly and efficient and correct if semantics are respected. Thanks in advance 1.? Rabin, Daniel Eli.? Calculi for functional programming languages with assignment [Ph.D. dissertation].?United States -- Connecticut: Yale University; 1996. Available from: Dissertations & Theses: Full Text. Accessed June 4, 2011,?Publication Number: AAT 9636080. --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 19:12 Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 04:37:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:37:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <275325.71499.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <496328.68145.qm@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: also kind of like this approach since we could cross debugging programs easily, so again I really like much more this approach, and of course OpenCL and stuff coming its way soon will be helped by this too. Also adopting this to the old m3-tk olivetti backend code generator, could be a good reason to ask about it. I think there is a way of? debugging easily in the AST, or at least that's what they thought was their next step. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 21:06 Hi all: and your long-waited wished and dreamed C backend code generator could be at hand: http://www.cminusminus.org/ http://getglue.com/topics/p/c http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~techrep/CS-98-19.ps.Z http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.123.8192 Hopefully some sort of draft of implementation exists for it. Would be nice since the code is still machine level and really portable, so that's even nicer! Have fun (this will make things for porting in Cell phones with Garbage collection support and so on). Also theoretical background is at hand (1), which is nicer again, since translation is smoothly and efficient and correct if semantics are respected. Thanks in advance 1.? Rabin, Daniel Eli.? Calculi for functional programming languages with assignment [Ph.D. dissertation].?United States -- Connecticut: Yale University; 1996. Available from: Dissertations & Theses: Full Text. Accessed June 4, 2011,?Publication Number: AAT 9636080. --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 19:12 Hi all: besides BSD-based phones (Motorola lines A###(#) seemed to have their pioneering efforts on Linux and also later BSD) . Also by the way smartbooks. Thanks to this kind of efforts the possible matrix of ports is humongous. Some work may have been done: http://osdir.com/ml/os.netbsd.ports.alpha/2005-12/msg00004.html Thanks in advance ? --- El vie, 3/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 18:10 Hi all: what about a smart phone zoo;? there are some interesting I guess, whether by the processor (though generally ARM), so it might be a good way of recycling that way gaining actually a new machine. My list would go with Symbian, S60, perhaps anything dual core (I know there was something like that in Japan), also what about the Blackberry, and Ipad, I know this is hard work but who else will be willingly to do it It's perhaps something onerous if you don't have so many telecommunications providers, but I guess, it's not too bad to have a few. Surely new Win phones or consoles are good for but I don't more than that. Some people make things such as teleconferences with Kynect, etc, sort of an example. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 3/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 3 de junio, 2011 15:00 I'm moving. My hardware clearance needs to widen and accelerate. I have: ? old x86 laptops ? ? old x86 server ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120732940601 )? ? Mac PowerPC laptops? ? iMac G5 ? AppleTV (1st gen, should make good I386_DARWIN and possibly AMD64_DARWIN node, not yet setup) ?? ? Alphas? ? SPARC? ? RS/6000? ? SGI Fuel (2)? ? Pretty much everything should go. ? Prices are very negotiable. ? It'd be cool if I was given ssh access to some but it isn't required.?? ? There are several undone/finished ports some of this hardware could support, e.g. PPC32_AIX, PPC64_AIX, MIPS32_IRIX, MIPS64_IRIX, PPC64_DARWIN, PPC64_LINUX, ALPHA32_VMS,?? ALPHA64_VMS, ALPHA64_FREEBSD, ALPHA64_OPENBSD, ALPHA64_NETBSD, ALPHA32_NT, etc.? ? I have 3 or so Hudson nodes: I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD, PPC_LINUX ?? x86 machines can be VMs and/or in the "cloud", and I386_OPENBSD and PPC_LINUX probably have no users (and a C backend moots having to test as much) ?? I386_DARWIN, AMD64_DARWIN I'm keeping ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Sun Jun 5 04:48:53 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 19:48:53 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> ... >Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining portability=2C besides perf= >ormance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). >Short of that=2C we did switch to get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads= >. >And sigaltstack on some platforms. >OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads=2C but for userthreads we s= >till hack on the jmpbuf. ... Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... But I hope we keep the user threads implementation working for other reasons. It's far easier to add new concurrency mechanisms, and to control the overhead of threading, in the user threads implementation than in the pthreads one. I'm specifically thinking of stuff like programs with many threads (I mean millions of threads) or things like "goroutines". Handling either is not particularly difficult with user threads. Same with the stack overlapping tricks I was investigating a while back. Not sure if it's even possible with pthreads. Also consider CSP-like constructs. CSP channels can be emulated under pthreads (indeed one would probably do it with the plain Modula-3 threading constructs) but become very inefficient. Maybe M-on-N threading (or whatever it's called) would be necessary to make all this work best. User threads within pthreads. Is that difficult? Mika From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 05:08:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 04:08:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <810200.78882.qm@web29717.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I heard from a U. Delaware Professor that they were working in Open64 research compiler, the exact details I don't know, but they did have a machine super (symmetric) multiprocessor and he told they were trying with Microthreads (in his brief conference he said that Win nor Linux were amenable for that, that is, inefficient), when I asked his opinion about Pascal, he told preferred speed than anything else, sadly, but I myself prefer good compromise between speed (execution) and safety (and they are related truly, precisely, this was evident in the ARX project when the compiled code was double size for ARM compared to 32016 back in Acorn days before Olivetti, I think they compiled code for they SUN NeWS for it too which was as far as I know C plus classes or at least something like that). If I may say so, there are other attempt to make safe C, CCured is one, they inserted RT calls to detect RT otherwise failures, very much like SPIN did. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Mika Nystrom escribi?: > De: Mika Nystrom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. > Para: "Jay K" > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 21:48 > ... > >Use of pthreads was a major step toward gaining > portability=2C besides perf= > >ormance on multiprocessor systems (i.e. all systems). > >Short of that=2C we did switch to > get/set/make/swapcontext for user threads= > >. > >And sigaltstack on some platforms. > >OpenBSD is the only outlier I think -- pthreads=2C but > for userthreads we s= > >till hack on the jmpbuf. > ... > > Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... > > But I hope we keep the user threads implementation working > for other > reasons. It's far easier to add new concurrency > mechanisms, and to > control the overhead of threading, in the user threads > implementation > than in the pthreads one. > > I'm specifically thinking of stuff like programs with many > threads (I mean > millions of threads) or things like "goroutines". > Handling either is not > particularly difficult with user threads. Same with > the stack overlapping > tricks I was investigating a while back. Not sure if > it's even possible > with pthreads. Also consider CSP-like > constructs. CSP channels can be > emulated under pthreads (indeed one would probably do it > with the plain > Modula-3 threading constructs) but become very > inefficient. > > Maybe M-on-N threading (or whatever it's called) would be > necessary > to make all this work best. User threads within > pthreads. Is that > difficult? > > Mika > > From ttmrichter at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 04:19:13 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Message-ID: === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) 1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3 "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encountered compilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 05:28:07 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 03:28:07 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 18:16:58 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 19:38:55 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:38:55 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <293668.40021.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 20:23:38 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:23:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 #yiv1944419358 .yiv1944419358ExternalClass #yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1944419358 .yiv1944419358ExternalClass #yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1944419358ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sun Jun 5 23:30:06 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:30:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6490.14871.qm@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and in the Acorn (later Olivetti) Research Center, they did actually quite of bit of the RT for the SUN NeWS, sort of interesting if you see the details behind it: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5274804/description.html If this things are old-fashioned I guess there is not too much good about current things, if I may say so :) : http://drdobbs.com/high-performance-computing/184415243 Ok, but if there is a good inter operable distributed platform is also a good idea, specially if the tools are ready: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.8345 Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 13:23 Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 #yiv1213456000 .yiv1213456000ExternalClass #yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1213456000 .yiv1213456000ExternalClass #yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434 .yiv1213456000ecxyiv1607822434hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Your m3core is not up to date. ?- Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === ?+++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?+++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed?*** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS ?&& cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' ?failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0? last updated: 2010-07-21 ? compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56? configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg ? host: AMD64_LINUX? target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 5 23:38:16 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 21:38:16 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Again, no. Modula-3 implementations have always depended on a C runtime. Always. Removing such a dependency is a tedious error-prone target-dependent task. And it buys you nothing. Please stop this crazy thinking. When there is a system that provides "m3core" from its "kernel", along with .i3 files, then you can cut the C runtime dependency for that target. Just for that target. Meanwhile, Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, Darwin, Cygwin, Interix, and hypothetical AIX, Irix, HP-UX, VMS targets will always have a C runtime dependency. Even on Win32/NT -- today we depend on very little, but on setjmp/longjmp. A good C backend would use __try/__except/__finally -- still depending on a C runtime. If you really want to cut the dependency, look perhaps at what was done for Go. Good luck. Keep in mind that e.g. Solaris and Apple don't allow for static linking the C runtime. Which somewhat implies that the kernel interface is private/undocumented/unstable. The C runtime is the blessed portability layer to target multiple revisions. I do find that a bit unfortunate. The Linux kernel does not implement pthreads. The C runtime does. And many more examples of varying thickness. Other ideas would be to generate Java or C#. C# is more viable since it is selectively unsafe. Java is probably not practical. > truly independent platform low level C-- No. Platform independence is mostly a matter of who all has done the porting for you already. Or how much of the work you have done yourself without depending on a lower level. Targeting a C compiler is far more compatible than anything else. In the realm of C--, LLVM is probably better. But again, C is much more portable. Of course, LLVM might be portable enough. C is also, again, more familiar. Would you rather maintain and debug code that interfaces with LLVM or code that generates C? Granted, both LLVM and the underlying C compiler will have bugs. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:23:38 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) Thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 12:38 Depending on C is VASTLY preferable to depending on C--. C is WIDELY understood, studied, implemented, optimized. C-- is extremely "small" in comparison -- in terms of how many people have heard of it, understand it well, have implemented it. Generating C should be our portable/slow solution, to replace gcc/m3cc/m3cg. Extending our existing backend to other targets is probably then a good idea, to speed up the compiler. It would be really great if our backend could inline though. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 17:16:58 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: ttmrichter at gmail.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Hi all: I would myself expect in m3core just not Unix nor Win interfaces (or WeakRef), neither necessarily the Thread interface, I mean if we are tied to the language definition, this are part of the standard libraries and by that I mean as are IO and Floating point standard interfaces. However Unix interfaces are not necessarily there too (as are not part of the language it self), perhaps the possible c--backend code generator interface could be there to let m3core interact with appropriated data structures (dtoa) and maybe the higher level interfaces (not UNSAFE) in libm3 at least at INTERFACE level. That is I would prefer to interact via some sort of C-- (instead of C, well if not verified, at least one of them, or the minimum bit possible of it). The idea is not to break the dependency in C, but replace by C-- as much as possible, so it's good to start there I believe. Thanks in advance --- El s?b, 4/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. Para: ttmrichter at gmail.com, "m3devel" Fecha: s?bado, 4 de junio, 2011 22:28 Your m3core is not up to date. - Jay Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 10:19:13 +0800 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. === package /home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3/m3-libs/libm3 === +++ cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' +++ --- building in AMD64_LINUX --- ignoring ../src/m3overrides new source -> compiling ProcessPosixCommon.m3 "../src/os/POSIX/ProcessPosixCommon.m3", line 75: unknown qualification '.' (Fork)1 error encountered new source -> compiling LowPerfTool.m3"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 37: unknown qualification '.' (Fork) "../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 39: case labels out of range"../src/perftool/POSIX/LowPerfTool.m3", line 44: case labels out of range 3 errors encounteredcompilation failed => not building library "libm3.a" Fatal Error: package build failed *** execution of cm3 -build -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' $RARGS && cm3 -ship $RARGS -DROOT='/home/michael/Development/Modula3/cm3' failed *** The cm3 I'm using for this build is: $ cm3 -version Critical Mass Modula-3 version d5.9.0 last updated: 2010-07-21 compiled: 2011-01-31 11:18:56 configuration: /usr/local/cm3/bin/cm3.cfg host: AMD64_LINUX target: AMD64_LINUX Does anybody have any suggestions what I'm doing wrong here? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Mon Jun 6 00:01:25 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 18:01:25 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <625323.54908.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110605220125.GA7436@topoi.pooq.com> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > Hi all: > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low level C-- is good to start with, you might see another implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even further to interact with that language, us here just need the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). Even SPIN did? transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) C-- is my favourite object code language, but it lacks support. As far as I know, it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe and that's about it. Several others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but that isn't really good enough. There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup on gmane. THe project looks moribund. I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- project, but I'm really not sure how to do it. It would probably be a lot of work. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 6 04:40:49 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 03:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <20110605220125.GA7436@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <430851.58066.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: well I think we would need a good C hacker (very good), I guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea to think in mobility I believe many others are working towards that, perhaps is time to us to do it. http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is client, client for that, ... If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be start to think what is better to start with, anyway I have not heard of something like mobile web development environment and so if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be in Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part of current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, fortunately there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in an University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert in arabic language (see: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue for interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you surely know that internet has support now for that kind of url, we may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as well, hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling is that they sort of like the language. Thanks in advance for all your comments on that --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > Hi all: > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to > understand that we don't want the RT to depend on specific > implementations, but to be portable really and truly, having > C underneath makes just another thing makes us to depend on > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), instead of > that, a clean low level but truly independent platform low > level C-- is good to start with, you might see another > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar (Modula-3 was > ported to it), just that their idea was to make this even > further to interact with that language, us here just need > the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't deny > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is C--), > something I don't know it's quite platform dependent in > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that BTW). > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to SPIN > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in a > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it lacks > support. As far as I know, > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe and > that's about it. Several > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but that > isn't really good enough. > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup on > gmane. THe project looks > moribund. > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- > project, but I'm really not > sure how to do it. > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > -- hendrik > > From hosking at cs.purdue.edu Tue Jun 7 03:00:24 2011 From: hosking at cs.purdue.edu (Tony Hosking) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 21:00:24 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] onoing hardware clearance. In-Reply-To: <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> References: <579772.17985.qm@web29712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <279670.63640.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110605024853.868641A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: Hoping to look into this very soon... On Jun 4, 2011, at 10:48 PM, Mika Nystrom wrote: > Too bad the pthreads implementation is broken... From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 9 18:04:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 17:04:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <430851.58066.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <657794.25662.qm@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: it is that there is an actual compiler that using Modula-3 M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object code generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and mostly LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the wish of C is just out there :) Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate additional target and have fun: http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain infrastructure. ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the hardest part?) If you may please take a look, thanks in advance --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > Hi all: > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very good), I > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea to > think in mobility I believe many others are working towards > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is > client, client for that, ... > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be start to > think what is better to start with, anyway I have not heard > of something like mobile web development environment and so > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be in > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part of > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, fortunately > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in an > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert in > arabic language (see: > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue for > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you surely > know that internet has support now for that kind of url, we > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as well, > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling is > that they sort of like the language. > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > escribi?: > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > Hi all: > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need to > > understand that we don't want the RT to depend on > specific > > implementations, but to be portable really and truly, > having > > C underneath makes just another thing makes us to > depend on > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), > instead of > > that, a clean low level but truly independent platform > low > > level C-- is good to start with, you might see > another > > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar > (Modula-3 was > > ported to it), just that their idea was to make this > even > > further to interact with that language, us here just > need > > the portable low level interfaces same way (I don't > deny > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally is > C--), > > something I don't know it's quite platform dependent > in > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say that > BTW). > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C idiom to > SPIN > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same in > a > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it > lacks > > support. As far as I know, > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 processoe > and > > that's about it. Several > > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, but > that > > isn't really good enough. > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- newsgroup > on > > gmane. THe project looks > > moribund. > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the C-- > > project, but I'm really not > > sure how to do it. > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 10 17:42:12 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 16:42:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <657794.25662.qm@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <446702.36221.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate and low level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low level debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't know when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, available for their internal use). Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, I refer FYI one: http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf Similar to others that may be available Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if you may tell me whether m3cg currently generates private structures or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, this is because if the former or the later we then have a lot of common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's PhD thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below url, by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man page): http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 (and doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents that, but formalizes through a description layer, but given compiler comparison available documentation in [2], we could be able to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis proposes it (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another Module implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In fact XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both target machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 compiler (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which generates C: http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like Boyland thesis): http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language machine and adding some persistence capabilities (a functional language stack based virtual machine): http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz Thanks in advance [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of compiler components,? University of California, Berkeley, 1996. [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > Hi all: > it is that there is an actual compiler that using Modula-3 > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object code > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and mostly > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the wish of > C is just out there :) > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate additional > target and have fun: > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain > infrastructure. > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the hardest > part?) > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > Hi all: > > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very > good), I > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good idea > to > > think in mobility I believe many others are working > towards > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think idea is > > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile web is > > client, client for that, ... > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may be > start to > > think what is better to start with, anyway I have not > heard > > of something like mobile web development environment > and so > > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort would be > in > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that part > of > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, > fortunately > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and Professor in > an > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's expert > in > > arabic language (see: > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > ), it might that she can give us some help or a clue > for > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since you > surely > > know that internet has support now for that kind of > url, we > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends as > well, > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My feeling > is > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > > Hi all: > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would need > to > > > understand that we don't want the RT to depend > on > > specific > > > implementations, but to be portable really and > truly, > > having > > > C underneath makes just another thing makes us > to > > depend on > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best idea), > > instead of > > > that, a clean low level but truly independent > platform > > low > > > level C-- is good to start with, you might see > > another > > > implementation of this idea in portable Cedar > > (Modula-3 was > > > ported to it), just that their idea was to make > this > > even > > > further to interact with that language, us here > just > > need > > > the portable low level interfaces same way (I > don't > > deny > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe ideally > is > > C--), > > > something I don't know it's quite platform > dependent > > in > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can say > that > > BTW). > > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal C > idiom to > > SPIN > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the same > in > > a > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, but it > > lacks > > > support. As far as I know, > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 > processoe > > and > > > that's about it. Several > > > others have been mentioned as being nearly ready, > but > > that > > > isn't really good enough. > > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- > newsgroup > > on > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > moribund. > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life into the > C-- > > > project, but I'm really not > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 10 21:46:29 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 20:46:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <446702.36221.qm@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <735889.66315.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: and here it is (work in progress) in Modula-3 a JVM target compiler (maybe later another VM since UNSAFE is nop in JVM) to create another language (see for the later: http://xerxys.de/index.php?title=Discussion ) : http://www.xerxys.org/index.php?title=Xm3 So the all dream about low level code in Modula-3 is nice, is just closer each time I guess. I wouldn't be surprised they even know the ARX OS, since there they coded everything in Modula-2+, so it's believable (more than SPIN) was (they always run in protected mode, so, I guess this would prove that safe codes needs not to live necessarily in kernel, though SPIN was, but to protect itself from others clients). Anyway, ARX coded even C runtime, so, it's not that surprising they did that yet it's wonderful. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 10:42 > Hi all: > besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate and low > level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low level > debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't know > when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, > available for their internal use). > Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, I > refer FYI one: > http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf > Similar to others that may be available > > Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if you may > tell me whether m3cg currently generates private structures > or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, this is > because if the former or the later we then have a lot of > common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's PhD > thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below url, > by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man page): > > http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf > > Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 (and > doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents that, but > formalizes through a description layer, but given compiler > comparison available documentation in [2], we could be able > to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis proposes it > (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another Module > implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In fact > XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both target > machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 compiler > (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: > http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages > > Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which generates > C: > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz > > or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like > Boyland thesis): > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf > > Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language machine and > adding some persistence capabilities (a functional language > stack based virtual machine): > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz > > > Thanks in advance > > [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of compiler > components,? University of California, Berkeley, 1996. > > [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 > > > > --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > > Hi all: > > it is that there is an actual compiler that using > Modula-3 > > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to object > code > > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure and > mostly > > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So the > wish of > > C is just out there :) > > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate > additional > > target and have fun: > > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining and > > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool chain > > infrastructure. > > > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM code > > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps the > hardest > > part?) > > > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > > Hi all: > > > well I think we would need a good C hacker (very > > good), I > > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is good > idea > > to > > > think in mobility I believe many others are > working > > towards > > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I think > idea is > > > recycled here, every word I heard about mobile > web is > > > client, client for that, ... > > > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we may > be > > start to > > > think what is better to start with, anyway I have > not > > heard > > > of something like mobile web development > environment > > and so > > > if they like idea why not? The biggest effort > would be > > in > > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix that > part > > of > > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in m3core, > > fortunately > > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and > Professor in > > an > > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, she's > expert > > in > > > arabic language (see: > > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > > ), it might that she can give us some help or a > clue > > for > > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all since > you > > surely > > > know that internet has support now for that kind > of > > url, we > > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian friends > as > > well, > > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. My > feeling > > is > > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on that > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 > from > > > trunk. > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > > > > Hi all: > > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you would > need > > to > > > > understand that we don't want the RT to > depend > > on > > > specific > > > > implementations, but to be portable really > and > > truly, > > > having > > > > C underneath makes just another thing makes > us > > to > > > depend on > > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the best > idea), > > > instead of > > > > that, a clean low level but truly > independent > > platform > > > low > > > > level C-- is good to start with, you might > see > > > another > > > > implementation of this idea in portable > Cedar > > > (Modula-3 was > > > > ported to it), just that their idea was to > make > > this > > > even > > > > further to interact with that language, us > here > > just > > > need > > > > the portable low level interfaces same way > (I > > don't > > > deny > > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe > ideally > > is > > > C--), > > > > something I don't know it's quite platform > > dependent > > > in > > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who can > say > > that > > > BTW). > > > > Even SPIN did transfered their ideal > C > > idiom to > > > SPIN > > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later did the > same > > in > > > a > > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in C#) > > > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code language, > but it > > > lacks > > > > support. As far as I know, > > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit x86 > > processoe > > > and > > > > that's about it. Several > > > > others have been mentioned as being nearly > ready, > > but > > > that > > > > isn't really good enough. > > > > There hasn't been much activity on the C-- > > newsgroup > > > on > > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > > moribund. > > > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing life > into the > > C-- > > > > project, but I'm really not > > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 11 04:51:24 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 03:51:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. In-Reply-To: <735889.66315.qm@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <560878.1847.qm@web29710.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I wonder how hard would be to evolve current JVM to Java jigsaw modularity system, it would be handy if not before we can support them, besides having such separate compilation support we could even re target the system easier than before, anyway it still lacks time, Java is through its process to do it, then other tools, static and dynamic I guess will need to be updated, ESC/Java, even before that if we may get somehow their main test suite would be wonderful to test whether we could support them and compare their results on their own ones. If that's the case we can give it a try to support them if really are interested in that. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from trunk. > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 14:46 > Hi all: > and here it is (work in progress) in Modula-3 a JVM target > compiler (maybe later another VM since UNSAFE is nop in JVM) > to create another language (see for the later: > http://xerxys.de/index.php?title=Discussion > > ) : > http://www.xerxys.org/index.php?title=Xm3 > > So the all dream about low level code in Modula-3 is nice, > is just closer each time I guess. > > I wouldn't be surprised they even know the ARX OS, since > there they coded everything in Modula-2+, so it's believable > (more than SPIN) was (they always run in protected mode, so, > I guess this would prove that safe codes needs not to live > necessarily in kernel, though SPIN was, but to protect > itself from others clients). Anyway, ARX coded even C > runtime, so, it's not that surprising they did that yet it's > wonderful. > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > --- El vie, 10/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > trunk. > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > "Hendrik Boom" > > Fecha: viernes, 10 de junio, 2011 10:42 > > Hi all: > > besides, that the existence of linker, intermediate > and low > > level cross assemblers from 16032 to ARM and a low > level > > debugger in Acorn, though did live there until don't > know > > when (even a PC emulator written back circa 1986, > > available for their internal use). > > Some information had appeared in some of the manuals, > I > > refer FYI one: > > http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/ARMCoPro/ARMAssem.rtf > > Similar to others that may be available > > > > Ok, besides that, I would want to ask you please if > you may > > tell me whether m3cg currently generates private > structures > > or generated gcc compiler tree-lang or both of them, > this is > > because if the former or the later we then have a lot > of > > common with an UW-Milwaukee Professor John Boyland's > PhD > > thesis [1] (a copy is larger than the one of the below > url, > > by 134 pages, sorry there is not m3cg available man > page): > > > > http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1996/CSD-96-916.pdf > > > > Main difference I believe is that it targeted Oberon-2 > (and > > doesn't generate M3CG ?-code), so it circumvents > that, but > > formalizes through a description layer, but given > compiler > > comparison available documentation in [2], we could be > able > > to re target it for Modula-3, in fact his thesis > proposes it > > (besides other Algol-derived languages plus another > Module > > implementing intermediate tree-lang to C backend). In > fact > > XDS Oberon-2/Modula-2 compiler that generates both > target > > machine and C language, and it's based on Modula-3 > compiler > > (so it might generate M3CG if so), see: > > http://wrapl.sourceforge.net/links.html#Programming_Languages > > > > Yet another example of this Tycoon's TML which > generates > > C: > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1992/Math92/codegen.ps.gz > > > > or indirectly through VM level (after the above, like > > Boyland thesis): > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1994/GaMa94/paper.pdf > > > > Yet before they tried Quest Cardelli's language > machine and > > adding some persistence capabilities (a functional > language > > stack based virtual machine): > > http://wwwmatthes.in.tum.de/file/Publications/1991/Matt91/P-Quest-Manual.ps.gz > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > [1] J. T. Boyland, ?Descriptional composition of > compiler > > components,? University of California, Berkeley, > 1996. > > > > [2]Computer abstracts. 1993. p152 > > > > > > > > --- El jue, 9/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 from > > trunk. > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > Fecha: jueves, 9 de junio, 2011 11:04 > > > Hi all: > > > it is that there is an actual compiler that > using > > Modula-3 > > > M3CG code generates C (why not may even C--) to > object > > code > > > generation inside a Scale Java infrastructure > and > > mostly > > > LGPL available (it makes type inference BTW). So > the > > wish of > > > C is just out there :) > > > Ok, perhaps it's good to think how to generate > > additional > > > target and have fun: > > > http://www-ali.cs.umass.edu/Scale/images/dataflow.gif > > > > > > Plusses are the optional optimization, inlining > and > > > debugging of C/C-- lcc, ldb, mld (NJMCTK) tool > chain > > > infrastructure. > > > > > > ftp://ftp.cs.umass.edu/pub/techrept/techreport/1997/UM-CS-1997-058.ps > > > > > > http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/tk-usenix.html > > > > > > I fell this sounds good for any given native JVM > code > > > generate and/or cross assembling in CM3 (perhaps > the > > hardest > > > part?) > > > > > > If you may please take a look, thanks in advance > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides > D. > > > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building CM3 > from > > > trunk. > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, > > > "Hendrik Boom" > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 21:40 > > > > Hi all: > > > > well I think we would need a good C hacker > (very > > > good), I > > > > guess all experience is welcomed, perhaps is > good > > idea > > > to > > > > think in mobility I believe many others are > > working > > > towards > > > > that, perhaps is time to us to do it. > > > > > > > > http://www.mobily.com.sa/wps/portal/apps-award > > > > > > > > Modula-3 web apps and custom browsers I > think > > idea is > > > > recycled here, every word I heard about > mobile > > web is > > > > client, client for that, ... > > > > > > > > If so perhaps that's not good enough so we > may > > be > > > start to > > > > think what is better to start with, anyway I > have > > not > > > heard > > > > of something like mobile web development > > environment > > > and so > > > > if they like idea why not? The biggest > effort > > would be > > > in > > > > Arabic characters, I guess would need to fix > that > > part > > > of > > > > current WIDECHAR libraries again not in > m3core, > > > fortunately > > > > there is a lady who worked in DEC SRC and > > Professor in > > > an > > > > University who worked with BIll Kalsow, > she's > > expert > > > in > > > > arabic language (see: > > > > http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3504134.Violetta_Cavalli_Sforza > > > > ), it might that she can give us some help > or a > > clue > > > for > > > > interfaces. This idea is not bad at all > since > > you > > > surely > > > > know that internet has support now for that > kind > > of > > > url, we > > > > may have a hand on it. I have some indian > friends > > as > > > well, > > > > hopefully they may get some interest if so. > My > > feeling > > > is > > > > that they sort of like the language. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for all your comments on > that > > > > > > > > --- El dom, 5/6/11, Hendrik Boom > > > > escribi?: > > > > > > > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Problems building > CM3 > > from > > > > trunk. > > > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > > Fecha: domingo, 5 de junio, 2011 17:01 > > > > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 07:23:38PM > > > > > +0100, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all: > > > > > > Yes, it would be nice, but you > would > > need > > > to > > > > > understand that we don't want the RT > to > > depend > > > on > > > > specific > > > > > implementations, but to be portable > really > > and > > > truly, > > > > having > > > > > C underneath makes just another thing > makes > > us > > > to > > > > depend on > > > > > C RT (that is less likely to be the > best > > idea), > > > > instead of > > > > > that, a clean low level but truly > > independent > > > platform > > > > low > > > > > level C-- is good to start with, you > might > > see > > > > another > > > > > implementation of this idea in > portable > > Cedar > > > > (Modula-3 was > > > > > ported to it), just that their idea was > to > > make > > > this > > > > even > > > > > further to interact with that language, > us > > here > > > just > > > > need > > > > > the portable low level interfaces same > way > > (I > > > don't > > > > deny > > > > > Modula-3 C runtime, but making it safe > > ideally > > > is > > > > C--), > > > > > something I don't know it's quite > platform > > > dependent > > > > in > > > > > inner C currently if I may say so (who > can > > say > > > that > > > > BTW). > > > > > Even SPIN did transfered their > ideal > > C > > > idiom to > > > > SPIN > > > > > Modula-3 (just what it missed, later > did the > > same > > > in > > > > a > > > > > distributed JVM an nowadays I think in > C#) > > > > > > > > > > C-- is my favourite object code > language, > > but it > > > > lacks > > > > > support. As far as I know, > > > > > it has a code generator for the 32-bit > x86 > > > processoe > > > > and > > > > > that's about it. Several > > > > > others have been mentioned as being > nearly > > ready, > > > but > > > > that > > > > > isn't really good enough. > > > > > There hasn't been much activity on the > C-- > > > newsgroup > > > > on > > > > > gmane. THe project looks > > > > > moribund. > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be worth breathing > life > > into the > > > C-- > > > > > project, but I'm really not > > > > > sure how to do it. > > > > > > > > > > It would probably be a lot of work. > > > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:07:51 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:07:51 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in order to further illustrate my point, here are some examples: modula3 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula3 modula2 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula2&aq=f surprisingly, modula2 has more information available! perhaps a short video explaining the motivation behind modula, and why to use it instead of other languages, would be a useful asset, don't you guys think so? 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. > > anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if anyone > has a link for modula videotutorials? > > if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 > videotutorials? > > the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, but > could be served from it. > > if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear > many doubts. > > I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything interesting, > or relevant for that matter. > > I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, > but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires > wizardry to work). > then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, > > nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I > need. > > if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna > have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), > > but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. > > > Any Ideas? > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:10:51 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:10:51 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: as silly as this might appear, this is what I think modula3 needs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqph8VGCi40 do you guys think this is a good idea? 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > in order to further illustrate my point, here are some examples: > > > modula3 > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula3 > > modula2 > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=modula2&aq=f > > surprisingly, > modula2 has more information available! > > perhaps a short video explaining the motivation behind modula, and why to > use it instead of other languages, would be a useful asset, don't you guys > think so? > > > 2011/6/11 felipe valdez > >> hi everyone, this is my first post. >> >> since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. >> >> it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. >> on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. >> >> anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if >> anyone has a link for modula videotutorials? >> >> if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 >> videotutorials? >> >> the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, >> but could be served from it. >> >> if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear >> many doubts. >> >> I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything >> interesting, or relevant for that matter. >> >> I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, >> but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires >> wizardry to work). >> then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, >> >> nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I >> need. >> >> if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna >> have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), >> >> but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. >> >> >> Any Ideas? >> >> >> -- >> 312-444-2124 >> 301-578-7884 >> >> >> > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 23:04:36 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 16:04:36 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Message-ID: hi everyone, this is my first post. since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. anyway, I'll figure it out eventually, what I'm interested in, is if anyone has a link for modula videotutorials? if these don't exist, is anyone interested in making modula3 videotutorials? the need arises from the large amount of people that don't know modula, but could be served from it. if perhaps, a ssmall 5 mins video was available, this would probably clear many doubts. I looked inside youtube for modula3, but i din't find anything interesting, or relevant for that matter. I teach CS at a class, and I'm interested in using it as a teaching tool, but given its current state (hard to install, documentation terse, requires wizardry to work). then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I need. if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a spanish-speaking audience), but I thought I'd ask here first, since you guys know all about it. Any Ideas? -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Sat Jun 11 23:32:17 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:32:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > I teach CS at a class, and I'm?interested?in using it as a teaching tool, but given its current state (hard to install, > documentation terse, requires wizardry to work). > then I'm afraid I won't be able to use it!, > > nevertheless, a couple videotutorials, and an MSI is pretty much all I need. > > if of course, nobody is interested, i can build those myself (I'm gonna have to do it eventually anyway, since this is a > spanish-speaking audience), I taught Modula-3 for mathematicians some years ago and prepared a script for that lecture in German. I do not know, whether this helps you. I could send you the LaTeX files. However I found that it is not a good idea to follow this script closely in a lecture, nonetheless I think it is good for reference. I think that a lot of practicing is better. And of course simple installation and certainly a video tutorial would help. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sun Jun 12 03:38:46 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:38:46 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 04:04:36PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. Interesting, there's a .deb for AMD64 (which seems to be 5.8.6), but not for LINUXLIBC6, the 32-bit Intel platform (where there are .tgz's for 5.8.5). So if yout system is 32-but, you'll have to go the .tgz route. See http://www.opencm3.net/releng/download.html -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Sun Jun 12 04:39:12 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 02:39:12 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> References: , <20110612013846.GA1497@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: It's there. http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb - Jay > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:38:46 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 04:04:36PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hi everyone, this is my first post. > > > > since I'm a newbie, it is hard to get anything working. > > > > it took a little work, but I managed t install modula3 on windows. > > on linux, I still can't find a suitable deb file. > > Interesting, there's a .deb for AMD64 (which seems to be 5.8.6), but not > for LINUXLIBC6, the 32-bit Intel platform (where there are .tgz's for > 5.8.5). So if yout system is 32-but, you'll have to go the .tgz route. > > See http://www.opencm3.net/releng/download.html > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Wed Jun 15 21:28:35 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the postgres path. From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 21:45:16 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:45:16 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , Message-ID: Remove postgres from the system_libs and/or system_liborder in the config file, if you don't have postgres. And then the postgres package should check for existance in system_libs/system_liborder and do nothing if not present. It might not currently. But this pattern is used some and works somewhat reasonably, but not perfectly. If you later do install postgres, you get to go back and reedit the config file -- not good. Imagine what the automation looks like -- the order you install packages should not affect the outcome -- so such automatic steps have to be rerun whenever anything is installed, or some optimized form of that. Surely some package systems have addressed this, but we don't interoperate with them, it's non-trivial and platform-dependent work... Besides that, there's a certain dumbness. Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost nothing -- just the headers and a list of symbols in libfoo.so, not the actual code for libfoo.so. That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewhere. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:28:35 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > > > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? > > It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres > bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the > postgres path. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 21:49:26 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:49:26 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: hello everyone. this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: do you want postgress integration (optional)? >no if( YES ) please provide the path else you have chosen not to integrate at this point. if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, http://example.com/instructions end if instead of: do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? >nope ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice addition to the .deb also chaning the default so that it actually points where a recent postgress installation is, would be nice as well, but I guess this is too much trouble, for a .deb file that everyone should know how to crack-open, edit, and then run without a problem, I mean, how many lines of code is it anyway? 2011/6/15 Henning Thielemann > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > > is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional >> component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? >> > > It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres > bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the > postgres path. > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemming at henning-thielemann.de Wed Jun 15 22:08:55 2011 From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de (Henning Thielemann) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > addition to the .deb Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 22:17:11 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:17:11 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , , <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 22:25:37 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:25:37 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> <4DF91157.1020501@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL. deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K > I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- > even if some of what it installs won't work. > It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. > postgres and where > editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query > what the config file did. > > Something seems off here. > > > - Jay > > > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > > > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > > addition to the .deb > > > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 15 22:31:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:31:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <765309.11579.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think in that way we could make room for the other (newer) implementation of it, since, what is the extra cost associated with linking to another example driver programs or a simple example more, normally a sort of good example to stress test to see whether the implementation is working or not. Actually the data base libraries are located in the usual path in that kind of systems, and in others it might not be the case but still a good chance is that you can still grab it and install it in the same root directory so it can't be that hard, anyways a real independent platform DBMS could be a terrific project for Modula-3, but whose are gonna make them. I know for instance ARX OS had a DB OS support directly files, "cabinets" and sequences of data as primitives,, may be something like the ML/SQL, you know what I mean, a way to? start to work in databases without too much trouble,? I think there existis, OO DBMS,? OO DBPL, and Structured? DB MS, but nothing like that, perhaps some problem may ARX have had else (relational). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:25 just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 15 23:26:37 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:26:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <765309.11579.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <146407.43186.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: in this regard the original OS/400 was a bit of Modula-2 + plus some ad-hoc extensions (and then rewrited in another language), in fact they studied another one Modula-90K developed at the Moscow Data Processing Center. And if it does matter the PL-SQL has an DIANA/Ada based ADT intermediate code middle end. If they matter to optimize that thing it is perhaps good to think in some adaptation layer with m3tk to be compatible at the intermediate level, see: http://wiki.oracle.com/page/PL%2FSQL If it matter anyway I think there should be some patents already about their ?-code VM, if not we could either look at their AS/400, sort of making in some sense compatible, at least at the language level, that could be awesome. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" , "felipe valdez" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:31 Hi all: I think in that way we could make room for the other (newer) implementation of it, since, what is the extra cost associated with linking to another example driver programs or a simple example more, normally a sort of good example to stress test to see whether the implementation is working or not. Actually the data base libraries are located in the usual path in that kind of systems, and in others it might not be the case but still a good chance is that you can still grab it and install it in the same root directory so it can't be that hard, anyways a real independent platform DBMS could be a terrific project for Modula-3, but whose are gonna make them. I know for instance ARX OS had a DB OS support directly files, "cabinets" and sequences of data as primitives,, may be something like the ML/SQL, you know what I mean, a way to? start to work in databases without too much trouble,? I think there existis, OO DBMS,? OO DBPL, and Structured? DB MS, but nothing like that, perhaps some problem may ARX have had else (relational). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: "Jay K" CC: "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 15:25 just as an exercise, if you find the time try this: download this file: http://www.opencm3.net/releng/cm3-LINUXLIBC6-REL.deb in a virtual-box hosted recent ubuntu distro, or in a ubuntu that doesn't have cm3 or postrges, and see if you get the same messages. I have a "vanilla" distro, but perhaps something is broken in my particular machine, that doesn't always happen in everyone-else's. if you can confirm via this experiment, that the results are replicable, then perhaps we'll have something to show for. otherwise, I assume it is just my machine. however, after a little search, this comes out: "There's no reliable way to detect a PostgreSQL install on UNIX/Linux/BSD either." http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-05/msg00809.php doesn't that suck ! and it is not even modula3's fault! 2011/6/15 Jay K I think the .deb file should install ok no matter what is installed -- even if some of what it installs won't work. It is only for rebuilding stuff from source that you might need e.g. postgres and where editing the config file should help, and where the m3makefile should query what the config file did. Something seems off here. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:08:55 +0200 > From: lemming at henning-thielemann.de > To: felipevaldez at gmail.com > CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On 15.06.2011 21:49, felipe valdez wrote: > > > I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice > > addition to the .deb > > Is this installation query part of the .deb-package? > > I think Debian is a distribution with defined places for libraries like > postgres. They can be hard-coded into cm3.config, since if postgres is > installed, it will be in that defined location. And if not installed, > the linker option for the postgres path will not hurt. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Wed Jun 15 23:39:33 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > hello everyone. > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > work, > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > >no > if( YES ) > please provide the path > else > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > http://example.com/instructions > end if > > instead of: > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > >nope > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection with postgress be a separate packate, called something like modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for modula3. The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would be appropriate. -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 23:52:01 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:52:01 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , Message-ID: > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > do you want postgress integration (optional)? I don't want setup to stop and ask me any questions. For multiple reasons: it might not know the answer, my answer might change later in time, it slows things down, the answer shouldn't be difficult for the setup to determine itself, but, that last point is what I claim is platform-dependent.. - Jay From: felipevaldez at gmail.com Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:49:26 -0500 To: lemming at henning-thielemann.de CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 hello everyone. this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful work, but, I guess a logic along the lines of: do you want postgress integration (optional)? >noif( YES ) please provide the pathelse you have chosen not to integrate at this point. if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, http://example.com/instructions end if instead of: do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component?>nopeok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. I can just learn more bash and do it myself, but it sounds like a nice addition to the .deb also chaning the default so that it actually points where a recent postgress installation is, would be nice as well, but I guess this is too much trouble, for a .deb file that everyone should know how to crack-open, edit, and then run without a problem, I mean, how many lines of code is it anyway? 2011/6/15 Henning Thielemann On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrated with cm3? It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the postgres path. -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 15 23:59:23 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:59:23 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , , , <20110615213933.GA26100@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 00:47:44 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. ?? And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. ?- Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Thu Jun 16 00:51:21 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:51:21 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <501241.62301.qm@web29708.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Still -- I want one "Modula-3" .deb per target. More than that is more for some of us to learn to create, more for some of us to learn to use, and more for our potential users to be confused by. Sure, our picky/advanced users will complain that our packaging is too monolithic. I guess, really, a real concern, is if we want to get packages/ports accepted and maintained and regularly rebuilt by distribution maintainers, for that we might need multiple packages. As well, you break things up when they become "too large". Is cm3? Anyway..none of this is a big deal imho. As long as the .deb works w/o postgres installed. - Jay Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. - Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 01:10:18 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 00:10:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <245856.94582.qm@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: yes, it seems reasonable, but in cross-development environment, the options are too many, what is the situation respect of that,? I mean to compile for "optional" Scale-C from M3CG and to m3cc in Gcc and friends (PathScale, etc) either M3CG or so it would be wonderful to directly compile and link with just additional C compiler-linker if so or if so C-- assembler. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 17:51 Still -- I want one "Modula-3" .deb per target. More than that is more for some of us to learn to create, more for some of us to learn to use, and more for our potential users to be confused by. Sure, our picky/advanced users will complain that our packaging is too monolithic. I guess, really, a real concern, is if we want to get packages/ports accepted and maintained and regularly rebuilt by distribution maintainers, for that we might need multiple packages. As well, you break things up when they become "too large". Is cm3? Anyway..none of this is a big deal imho. As long as the .deb works w/o postgres installed. ?- Jay Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:47:44 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com; m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Hi all: I think there is actually the deb virtual package, it can have it's own dependences, and it doesn't need other actual files, if the package is available (whether by dpkg- or package system query else user supplied then it goes else it doesn't install it). Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 15/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com, "m3devel" Fecha: mi?rcoles, 15 de junio, 2011 16:59 #yiv1264870707 .yiv1264870707ExternalClass #yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295 .yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1264870707 .yiv1264870707ExternalClass #yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295 .yiv1264870707ecxyiv303785295hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I don't like the idea of having multiple packages. ?? And I don't see that it helps -- I don't know why installing the current .deb files doesn't work, fairly independent of what is installed (assuming there is at least gcc/ld/libc). I want there to be close to one download per-target, and I want the web pages to sniff from the agent string which download to steer the user to, like the Firefox download pages do, with a link to a list of everything so user can chose, e.g. if they are downloading to run on other than the current system. (one .deb or .msi or .dmg, etc., one .tar.gz/bz2/xz/lzma) I find the current proliferation of packages, that we already have, confusing. I'm ok with their being a separate set for "minimal to bootstrap from source". I understand that things are in fact modular. That there is in fact a dependency tree. And it isn't very complicated. The system isn't monolithic. But I don't think presenting users with many choices is friendly. I understand that the world -- really, the larger world, beyond computers -- is modular. As is the computer world. Parts come and go (people, buildings, roads, cars, etc.). But considering things as being composed of too many too small pieces (atoms, molecules) gets confusing. Maybe my tendency is toward too few too large pieces. ?- Jay > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:33 -0400 > From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 02:49:26PM -0500, felipe valdez wrote: > > hello everyone. > > > > this is me just nagging, and complaining, but not actually doing any useful > > work, > > but, I guess a logic along the lines of: > > > > do you want postgress integration (optional)? > > >no > > if( YES ) > > please provide the path > > else > > you have chosen not to integrate at this point. > > if you ever need to in the future, follow these instructions, > > http://example.com/instructions > > end if > > > > instead of: > > > > do you have the exact path of the non-optional-but-required component? > > >nope > > ok, then, I'll stop working, until you install the non-required dependency. > > The usual way this stuff is done in Debian is to have the connection > with postgress be a separate packate, called something like > modula3-postgress. and whose description would say "postress binding for > modula3. > > The postinstall scripts for modula3 and mosula3-postgress would > each check for the other package and make the necessary adjustments. > > modula3-postgress would depend both on modula3 and on postgress. > > There are probably a few library bindings for which this treatment would > be appropriate. > > -- hendrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Thu Jun 16 08:01:26 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:01:26 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de> Message-ID: <20110616060126.CE0721A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Furthermore, there might be problems with code that use postgres. I use it myself (a lot), and I'm not sure where I got the bindings from (they look similar but not identical to what I see in cm3). While it is true that the UNSAFE keyword that introduces PQ.i3 could be taken as license to do all sorts of bad things, there's one particularly bad thing that is far from obvious. It is critical to call Scheduler.DisableSwitching before anything that calls malloc under *some* user threading implementations. (I've never seen a problem on FreeBSD4, but it causes huge problems on AMD64_LINUX.) At the very least there ought to be a comment about this in PQ.i3. Does anyone use this interface and would care to comment? This brings to mind Jay's idea of disabling switching whenever calling an EXTERNAL function. I think this is too big a sledgehammer but something along these lines probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps making it the default but overridable somehow? If it can be done in a backward-compatible way in the pragma itself that might be best.. <*EXTERNAL*><*CLEAN*> but hmm PM3 probably would choke on additional pragmas... Mika Henning Thielemann writes: > >On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, felipe valdez wrote: > >> is there a way to bypass postgress, I mean, shouldn't this be an optional component, or is postrges deeply integrate >d with cm3? > >It is not integrated by any means. It is only needed if you use postgres >bindings for Modula-3. It should be possible to skip configuration of the >postgres path. From mika at async.caltech.edu Thu Jun 16 08:17:59 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:17:59 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , Message-ID: <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Jay K writes: ... >Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. >Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost not= >hing -- just the headers and >a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual code for libfoo.so. >That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewher= >e. ... SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only the .a/.so, the .i3 files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 started shipping the sources, not sure why. Mika From wagner at elegosoft.com Thu Jun 16 12:14:43 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:14:43 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> References: , , , , , <4DF8F9F3.9010203@henning-thielemann.de>, , <20110616061759.A929C1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting Mika Nystrom : > Jay K writes: > ... >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so ought to require almost not= >> hing -- just the headers and >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual code for libfoo.so. >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows works. But maybe not elsewher= >> e. > ... > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only the .a/.so, the .i3 > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 started shipping the sources, > not sure why. I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and referenced source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. I don't really see how that is related to linking against external libraries though. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 16:43:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com> Message-ID: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > De: Olaf Wagner > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > Jay K writes: > > ... > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > ought to require almost not= > >> hing -- just the headers and > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > code for libfoo.so. > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > works. But maybe not elsewher= > >> e. > > ... > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > started shipping the sources, > > not sure why. > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > referenced > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > external > libraries though. > > Olaf > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > Berlin, Germany > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > http://www.elegosoft.com | > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > From jay.krell at cornell.edu Thu Jun 16 20:27:09 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:27:09 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <20110616121443.hhii1f39c4co8kc8@mx0.elegosoft.com>, <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 16 21:34:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: ?/cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) ?main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ?..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu Jun 16 22:29:42 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:29:42 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: References: <353319.74441.qm@web29713.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110616202942.GA18822@topoi.pooq.com> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 06:27:09PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. Which is why Debian would make the postgres wrapper a separate package, which would depend on potgres. -- hendrik From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 17 00:10:04 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:10:04 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <921597.97634.qm@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Fri Jun 17 01:11:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. ? (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) ? Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. ?- Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 #yiv1235405760 .yiv1235405760ExternalClass #yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033 .yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033hmmessage P {padding:0px;} #yiv1235405760 .yiv1235405760ExternalClass #yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033 .yiv1235405760ecxyiv1044864033hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: ?/cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) ?/cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) ?main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ?..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 17 01:26:45 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 In-Reply-To: <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: , <996031.47456.qm@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 19:52:24 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:52:24 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > To: , m3devel , Olaf > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs > > You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. > /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? > Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. > Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. > There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the > executable. > All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. > I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. > But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. > > > - Jay > > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to > was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not > really Modula-3) might be available. > > CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet > them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious > if you want to link other libs you might want another model of > pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent > procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup > (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that > is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) > sense if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" < > wagner at elegosoft.com> > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 > > > > > > Daniel, I don't understand you. > We have pretty good support for cross builds. > However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are > often not so easy to build/setup. > We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can > set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. > If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is > easy and minor. > We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. > > Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. > And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. > Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able > to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 > -target=foo,bar. > > > > cm3 knows about "all" targets. > It knows very little about any target, really. > But some. > I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. > This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to > configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. > (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all > targets at once.) > Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet > another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. > > > Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. > There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. > It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. > > > - Jay > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; > wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like > say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible > targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some > others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) > as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. > Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar > ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the > cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could > somehow get into play. > Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, > but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" < > wagner at elegosoft.com> > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 > > > > > > rambly... > > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the > start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres > wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, > not for installing anything. > > On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I > think that was an accident. > The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. > > As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at > doing the very little it does. > And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly > tend to be installed, so that > the probing > around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a > variety of places. > > Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), > user might still > manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. > > Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited > upon install. > AND to that end, there should be a better separation between > simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content > and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the > possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited > > > By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: > > /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick > some extension) > /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) > > main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, > in some order > > > > oops but there I went making things modular! :) > > > ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. > > The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel > files that include > other shared and "gnarlier" files. > > It takes merely like > > SYSTEM_LIBS = ... > > in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. > > We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. > > But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, > AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. > rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. > > ..Jay > > > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > Hi all: > > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC > the vesta CM > system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for > local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides > the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests > whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, > however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another > experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was > Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in > Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many > others obviously more critical than it self. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner > escribi?: > > > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > > ... > > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > > ought to require almost not= > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > > >> e. > > > > ... > > > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like > this: m3ship would ship only > > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > > started shipping the sources, > > > > not sure why. > > > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > > referenced > > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > > external > > > libraries though. > > > > > > Olaf > > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > > Berlin, Germany > > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht > Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110616/8f0ac803/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 21:08:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:08:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 21:50:22 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:50:22 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <765282.63647.qm@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Hi all: > if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you > save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". > Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll > back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since > their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with > time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a > file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! > BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? > I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. > Thanks in advance > > --- El *lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez * escribi?: > > > De: felipe valdez > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 > > > I also think this is a non- obvious problem. > > in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and > indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in > ubuntu? > > what about: > > $ which postgres > > does that yield good results? > > > > 2011/6/17 > > > > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 > From: Jay K > > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > To: >, > m3devel >, > Olaf > > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs > > You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. > /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? > Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. > Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. > There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the > executable. > All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. > I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. > But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. > > > - Jay > > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com ; > jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to > was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not > really Modula-3) might be available. > > CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet > them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious > if you want to link other libs you might want another model of > pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent > procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup > (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that > is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) > sense if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K > > escribi?: > > De: Jay K > > > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es , > "m3devel" >, > "Olaf" > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 > > > > > > Daniel, I don't understand you. > We have pretty good support for cross builds. > However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are > often not so easy to build/setup. > We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can > set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. > If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is > easy and minor. > We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. > > Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. > And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. > Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able > to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 > -target=foo,bar. > > > > cm3 knows about "all" targets. > It knows very little about any target, really. > But some. > I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. > This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to > configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. > (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all > targets at once.) > Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet > another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. > > > Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. > There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. > It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. > > > - Jay > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com ; > jay.krell at cornell.edu > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like > say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible > targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some > others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) > as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. > Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar > ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the > cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could > somehow get into play. > Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but > it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K > > escribi?: > > De: Jay K > > > Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es , > "m3devel" >, > "Olaf" > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 > > > > > > rambly... > > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". > i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. > > That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the > start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres > wasn't installed. > The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, > not for installing anything. > > On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I > think that was an accident. > The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. > > As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at > doing the very little it does. > And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly > tend to be installed, so that > the probing > around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a > variety of places. > > Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), > user might still > manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. > > Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited > upon install. > AND to that end, there should be a better separation between > simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content > and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the > possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited > > > By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: > > /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some > extension) > /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) > /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) > > main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, > in some order > > > > oops but there I went making things modular! :) > > > ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. > > The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel > files that include > other shared and "gnarlier" files. > > It takes merely like > > SYSTEM_LIBS = ... > > in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. > > We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. > > But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, > AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. > rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. > > ..Jay > > > > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com ; > wagner at elegosoft.com > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > > Hi all: > > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC > the vesta CM > system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for > local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides > the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests > whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, > however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another > experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was > Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in > Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many > others obviously more critical than it self. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner > > > escribi?: > > > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > > > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > > Quoting Mika Nystrom > >: > > > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > > ... > > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > > ought to require almost not= > > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > > code for libfoo.so. > > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > > >> e. > > > > ... > > > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like > this: m3ship would ship only > > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > > started shipping the sources, > > > > not sure why. > > > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > > referenced > > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > > external > > > libraries though. > > > > > > Olaf > > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > > Berlin, Germany > > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht > Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110616/8f0ac803/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 > *************************************** > > > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 22:30:44 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:30:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <534561.96847.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if so, why you bring the discussion about registry, if not relevant? This is more than that, like application manager, which is dependent by it's ownd efinition, I believe that's why your referent is that just that, so I bring the ARX OS optical disk file system, anyway, so the business is to make an DBMS product to keep the relevant info? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 22:36:22 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:36:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <534561.96847.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <237815.84510.qm@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: BTW the AX OS was more like Mach than anything else but you are correct, Win are to be POSIX compliant but besides that, there isn't much there, maybe is just my impression if so. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "felipe valdez" CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 15:30 Hi all: if so, why you bring the discussion about registry, if not relevant? This is more than that, like application manager, which is dependent by it's ownd efinition, I believe that's why your referent is that just that, so I bring the ARX OS optical disk file system, anyway, so the business is to make an DBMS product to keep the relevant info? Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 20 23:36:31 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:36:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <494260.13484.qm@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: In terms of OS technologies, yes the idea was quite revolutionary, most of that came frrom Rrichard Cownie, application Manager of the OS: " Other prominent people on ARX were Steve Glassman (window system)" --may he rest in peace, died in alst October,- ", Carl Dellar (filesystem), Jon Gibbons (InterScript-based editor)." They were led in the project by Jim Mitchell, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._Mitchell Trevor Morris and Mick Jordan were the actual compiler duys, very small group but brave group of people! I give you all the email I interchanged with permission of the AM RC: Hi, Hmm, off the top of my head, I don't remember anything called CAMEL -do you have any idea what it was ? ?Something might come back to me. I did work on the other OS project, I think that's the thing called ARX.It was really crazy. ?Development was based in Palo Alto, California,with a bunch of ex-Xerox PARC people led by Jim Mitchell. ?The originalidea was for a brand new incompatible-with-anything-else OS forbusiness computing, using write-once optical disks instead of magnetic,with its own window system, its own transaction-based filesystem,its own editor based on Interscript, and basically anything wacky thatanyone felt like working on. ?And it was all supposed to run on a machinewith 512KByte of DRAM. I went out there for 6 months or so to work on the "Application Manager" -and I had never seen a windowing system, so I had no clue what thehell I was doing. ?There were no documents worth a damn. ?Mitchell wasalways just about to sit down and write the API's for the OS, but itnever happened. ?And they added Unix compatibility as a feature ata late stage, and really no-one had any idea how to do it. The whole thing was being developed using Acorn hardware and software -fileservers based on 6502 processors, the Acorn EcoNet network, andpersonal machines using early ARM boards. ?And there was no sensiblesource code management. ?The most useful thing I did was to write aprogram called "xfertree" which could sync up two file trees across thenetwork with minimal file transfers: if you copied a whole source treethings weren't reliable enough to get it done :-( And the whole thing was supposed to use Modula-2+, with heavy useof exceptions ... but the compiler was being developed at the same timeand didn't have the exception features yet ... A total mess. ?The project thrashed around for a while until the guysback in England got hardware and started essentially rewriting the BBC OSinto a mixture of ARM assembler and BBC BASIC - and that was whatbecame RISCOS. ?IIRC they hacked together the first version in just acouple of weeks, though there was a lot of evolution later, led byWilliam Stoye, a super-smart guy. Jim Mitchell, and I think many of the other ARX people, went on to joinSun and do another mostly-disastrous OS project, the Spring OS. As I say, I don't really remember "CAMEL", but I was around the ARXdevelopment and if you give me some hints it might jog my memory. Regards??Richard Cownie Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "Modula-3 developers" Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 14:50 Hi, Daniel. the discussion is not about whether or not the announced (but yet undelivered) new windows file system, will handle such tasks. the problem is concerning, detecting the location of an currently installed program, in a cross platform way. I suggested a way, by implying that "windows solves it", but what my statement didn't attempt to convey, is that windows is a better solution what linux/unix, as an OS, or that it is better in every other aspect, and we should all switch (which is not the case). I'm not surprised, that by the mere mention of the MS product, one is immediately reminded of its flaws, by the linux/unix advocates, but still, this is not the point at all. 2011/6/20 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: if that's more important I would like roll back, can you have that, can you save/restore it? yes, wel call them "backups". Interesting perhaps that was part of the idea of ARX OS, if you could roll back there is room for things like that, I think is quite possible since their cabinets where printed on optical mediums, so they were "fingerprinted" with time stamps even such a feature requires more than optical data, requires a file system, storing a timestamp, requires a filesystem, what a revolutionary concept!, tell me more! BTW, what is FS in Win7 or 8, does it have that capabilities? I believe they use: create_date and modified_date, but I suppose your needs are much more esoteric and specific than what the program solved. I for one have used version control successfully, but not for all the files, but rather for a small part of the filesystem, (my source files). do you propose that having a rollback in the filesystem, is somehow related to the postgres location determination problem in any way? if so, please let us know, I'm curious. Thanks in advance --- El lun, 20/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: lunes, 20 de junio, 2011 12:52 I also think this is a non- obvious problem. in windows, there is the registry, which is al wasy the same path, and indicates the actual path of the files, does a facility like this exist in ubuntu? what about: $ which postgres does that yield good results? 2011/6/17 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 (Jay K) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:26:45 +0000 From: Jay K Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 To: , m3devel , Olaf Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs You mean, like, to link to /usr/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /usr/local/lib/libpostgres.so vs. /home/jay/lib/libpostgres.so? Yeah, that is a problem. No good solution. Build-from-source is a solution, but not a good one. There's "origin", /etc/ld.so.conf, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, full paths in the executable. All are used, all have very significant advantages and disadvantages. I don't believe anyone has solved this problem. But I'm sure plenty of people believe they have. - Jay Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:11:00 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: yeah, you are correct the main problem might solved, but I was referring to was to the packaging in those cases where several implementations (not really Modula-3) might be available. CM problems that might have been solved too, I don't quite understand yet them as you. Sorry my ignorance if so. Anyway I think that is quite obvious if you want to link other libs you might want another model of pre-built-binaries or as you marked make everything compilation dependent procedures, which is something contrary to easy install and play setup (smarter developer, maybe individual packages for traditional users, that is, no geeks or both of them if could be fixed in the compiler setting) sense if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 17:10 Daniel, I don't understand you. We have pretty good support for cross builds. However it rests on underlying cross-compiler/linker though, and those are often not so easy to build/setup. We use whatever gcc is in $PATH, it can be a cross compiler, and you can set $CM3_TARGET / $M3CONFIG to point to whatever target configuration. If you don't want "gcc in $PATH" but instead want "target-gcc", that is easy and minor. We could support e.g. $CM3_CC. Probably it should be more like cm3 -target=foo. And the quake/config/cm3 code should perhaps probe for foo-gcc. Something like autoconf. But at each invocation, since you should be able to say cm3 -target=foo && cm3 -target=bar or even all at once cm3 -target=foo,bar. cm3 knows about "all" targets. It knows very little about any target, really. But some. I tried to remove its knowledge about jmpbuf size but so that failed. This is mostly better than the typical gcc usage where you have to configure and build separate gcc (gcc, cc1plus, etc.) for each target. (However binutils/ld/as are better now, you can perhaps configure for all targets at once.) Of course, cm3cg is gcc, so it still has that problem. Yuck. This is yet another problem that a C-backend would fix -- no more target-specific cm3cg. Much of the target-specific knowledge is in Quake/config files. There is more than I would like, but it isn't a ton. It is a less than it used to be, both in cm3 and the quake/config code. - Jay Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:34:41 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Hi all: but indeed if we were building such a cross-development environment like say eg I386_MINGW, else anything like that we would have several possible targets (for instance some application compiled under X Window and some others for native GUI, granted potentially the C compiler linker fits there) as AMD64_INTERIX, etc. Tjis cases could create a problem to package everything in just one tar ball, it would be more a modular thing as you say, again I coincide that the cost of what we can host is better, but there are this issues we could somehow get into play. Anyway, it is maybe a cross-development issue rather than native issue, but it certainly begs some attention if I may say so. Thanks in advance --- El jue, 16/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: RE: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 Para: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es, "m3devel" , "Olaf" Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 13:27 rambly... > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. I wasn't referring to "libm3.so" so much as "libc.so". i.e. not stuff we build, but stuff we reference. That is -- if you recall -- the thread "started" (I seemed to miss the start) bemoaning something about a dependency on postgres and postgres wasn't installed. The postgres dependency should only be for building our postgres wrapper, not for installing anything. On a private reply...apparently I left cminstall in the *.deb files, and I think that was an accident. The original poster installed the .deb and ran cminstall. As I said private and repeatedly pubically -- cminstall isn't very good at doing the very little it does. And also, I did do the per-target work of finding where packages strongly tend to be installed, so that the probing around by cminstall is less useful. Granted...stuff can still be in a variety of places. Even if, e.g. /usr/opt is "standard" in some packaging system (NetBSD?), user might still manually install to /usr/local or $HOME or $HOME/foo or whatever. Ultimately I guess I guess the config files can and should be user-edited upon install. AND to that end, there should be a better separation between simple-somewhat-likely-to-be-user-edited content and gnarlier-less-likely-to-be-edited, and the possibly-not-sure-it-exists-must-not-be-edited By which..I don't know...maybe the files should be broken up more, like: /cm3/bin/config/target/libraries (a text file, a quake snippet -- pick some extension) /cm3/bin/config/target/c_compiler (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/internal (ditto) /cm3/bin/config/target/main? (ditto) main would simply include(internal), c_compiler, libraries, in some order oops but there I went making things modular! :) ..and...really..I'm not going to do this, for multiple reasons. The current code is already somewhat well factored into small toplevel files that include other shared and "gnarlier" files. It takes merely like SYSTEM_LIBS = ... in the toplevel file to trump the shared gnarly stuff. We should possibly just put that in each file, commented out perhaps. But even so, I don't like putting much of anything in I386_LINUX, AMD64_LINUX, PPC_LINUX, etc. rather nicer to put stuff in Linux.common. ..Jay > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:43:28 +0100 > From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; wagner at elegosoft.com > Subject: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Hi all: > I think is just because of the project repository thing,a s In DEC SRC the vesta CM system, and had a cache of the copies in the laboratories and compiled for local machines (but they did have the AST cached, see: > ftp://apotheca.hpl.hp.com/pub/dec/SRC/research-reports/SRC-168.pdf > > I believe to help building large programs), I however don't know besides the test purposes where behind this specifically Juno-2, it seems they tests whether the configuration scheme was optimized to Juno ?-code programs, however still I don't think they necessarily did that but for another experiment of performance monitoring called PSpec used to monitor how was Juno-2 behaving in execution times mount also in Vesta in the JunoVM. > > BTW, if it doesn't matter what is the current working state of Juno-2 in Win32, this could be the most critical but appreciable piece between many others obviously more critical than it self. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El jue, 16/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > > > De: Olaf Wagner > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] helo everyone - videotutorials for modula3 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: jueves, 16 de junio, 2011 05:14 > > Quoting Mika Nystrom : > > > > > Jay K writes: > > > ... > > >> Besides that=2C there's a certain dumbness. > > >> Compiling and dynamic linking against libfoo.so > > ought to require almost not= > > >> hing -- just the headers and > > >> a list of symbols in libfoo.so=2C not the actual > > code for libfoo.so. > > >> That is basically how compile/link on Windows > > works. But maybe not elsewher= > > >> e. > > > ... > > > > > > SRC M3 used to work like this: m3ship would ship only > > the .a/.so, the .i3 > > > files, and some sort of symbol table. PM3 > > started shipping the sources, > > > not sure why. > > > > I think the only reason is to have fully indexed and > > referenced > > source documentation via Reactor/CM3-IDE/m3browser. > > > > I don't really see how that is related to linking against > > external > > libraries though. > > > > Olaf > > --Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 > > Berlin, Germany > > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > > http://www.elegosoft.com | > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 22 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.krell at cornell.edu Fri Jun 24 22:55:50 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Message-ID: sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Sat Jun 25 03:15:02 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Mon Jun 27 18:50:12 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 01:31:09 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wagner at elegosoft.com Tue Jun 28 08:38:23 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 08:38:23 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] Advertising, was: Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110628083823.i8x23wyaogc080gk@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting felipe valdez : > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. And this would help? :-) > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? Probably not. None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for much advertising. > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. But you cannot command support in an open source project; people will just do what interests them. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dragisha at m3w.org Tue Jun 28 13:18:23 2011 From: dragisha at m3w.org (=?utf-8?Q?Dragi=C5=A1a_Duri=C4=87?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:18:23 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65D98B89-0240-401A-AD24-6A1BA72CD12A@m3w.org> I don't get this... There is easy to install, setup package, for windows? Or I just dreamt about it? Ir maybe not, I remember using it, also :). On Jun 28, 2011, at 1:31 AM, felipe valdez wrote: > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 16:37:46 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:37:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <65D98B89-0240-401A-AD24-6A1BA72CD12A@m3w.org> Message-ID: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "felipe valdez" CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 06:18 I don't get this... There is easy to install, setup package, for windows? Or I just dreamt about it? Ir maybe not, I remember using it, also :). On Jun 28, 2011, at 1:31 AM, felipe valdez wrote: in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dragisha at m3w.org Tue Jun 28 17:13:18 2011 From: dragisha at m3w.org (=?utf-8?Q?Dragi=C5=A1a_Duri=C4=87?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:13:18 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation. Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > Ji all: > I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. > Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). > > Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 17:48:15 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 10:48:15 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: hi, thanks for your prompt response. 2011/6/28 Dragi?a Duri? > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing > python. > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn > programming this summer. > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the > end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must > think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't > respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present > first). > > this is a fairly interesting question. the more users, the more traction, the more libraries, the more activity, the more stuff to learn, etc. also, the more users, the more real needs, from real users, which might drive the language forward in its usefulness. but, on the other hand, for those who do $work in m3, it would be a bad thing, since a lot of competition would be brought forward, and also a lot of bad code with it (generators, etc). so, the big question, is if it would be a desirable thing, to have a larger userbase. other companies, and language people, DO all the time try to get more people (by doing cool demos and stuff). > Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but > algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! > > I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF > with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries > (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. > the main reason for this to be useful for others, is that if there is a small videotutorial showing how to use it, the barrier of entry gets even lower. with a lot of source code contributed, there is a need for documentation. but still, I guess most would welcome your kind contribution, without any previous conditions. > I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" > class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of > binding automation. > > Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think > Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install > distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), > I agree, perhaps me blaming them for not having it is just me being ignorant of their efforts. but clearly, from the main cm3 page, there isn't a clear path towards a "getting started", it takes work just to setup the engine (for newbies like me at least), this is where a python "batteries included" approach excels at bringing people into the language. > Think Robotics. > > I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack > gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. > > I also agree that m3devel is not the place for the m3newbies, if such list exists, I'd like to join it! (haven't found the URL) if it doesn't, then we should create it in google groups! > To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help > straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, > someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? > > dd > > On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: > > Ji all: > I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, > user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, > Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, > Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC > (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are > others Algorithm Animation, etc. > Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, > however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original > Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, > the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals > talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). > > Thanks in advance > > > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 28 17:54:41 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> References: <1309271866.25512.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: <20110628155441.GA3406@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn > programming this summer. Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called HtDP), which introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, direct, and gets to the point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches how to think about programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier to learn almost any other programming language. It really focusses on program design, not the arcana of Scheme. I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two in a course is effective even if the main point of the course is teaching another language (yes even though it means there ends up being less time to teach the other language). The book is available for purchase, or for free download. And there's a draft of a second edition available that can start a student off with graphics instead of (or as well as) math. Look at its Wikipedia article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs for further details. The course matches the DrRacket implementation of scheme. Go ask on the Racket mailing list for further advice on deployment. Students can ask there for study hints, too; the list members are helpful in helping the student figure out the problems rather than just giving answers. http://lists.racket-lang.org/ -- hendrik > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python > in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll be easier to understand if they go through the HtDP execrise first. > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't > think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep > to be what we present first). So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. -- hendrik From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 18:46:43 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:46:43 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/6/28 > > > Quoting felipe valdez : > > > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > > Modula-3 > > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their > language > > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to > grow > > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > And this would help? :-) > I think so, since it would lower the entry bar. > > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have > been > > made, to grow the community. > > > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > Probably not. > None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for > much advertising. > > this is a very sad thing to hear. I wonder why... > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. > But you cannot command support in an open source project; people > will just do what interests them. > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, which leads me to think really hard about, given this fact, how did it get so large and complex at all! in fact how did any OS project did got like that! it must really be in the interest of some people! -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From felipevaldez at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 19:00:14 2011 From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:00:14 -0500 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, > sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe > still there: > > http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > escribi?: > > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? > |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? > |?????? +?? |??? o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, > Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT > 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 > From: felipe valdez > Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > Modula-3 > I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to > grow > the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > made, to grow the community. > > is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > > > > 2011/6/25 > > > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > > From: Jay K > > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > To: m3devel > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > > I believe they both work. > > They have CPU and memory. > > And maybe hard drive. > > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > > it. > > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > > install from CD. > > > > > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > > (NT 4.0). > > > > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave > it > > as Hudson node. > > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > > really. > > > > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very > slow. > > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > > But I might set those back up. > > > > > > - Jay > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > > Tru64 > > To: m3devel , Jay K > > Message-ID: > > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi all: > > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of > its > > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on > each > > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > > AIX > > HW?????? > > > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? > ? > > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | > ?????? > > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? > o? > > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? > o?????? > > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? > |??? > > o > > > > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that > perhaps > > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > > > De: Jay K > > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > Para: "m3devel" > > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > > I believe they both work. > > They have CPU and memory. > > And maybe hard drive. > > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am > mid-replacing > > it. > > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > > install from CD. > > > > > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > > (NT 4.0). > > > > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave > it > > as Hudson node. > > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > > really. > > > > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very > slow. > > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) > and > > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > > But I might set those back up. > > > > > > ?- Jay > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > M3devel mailing list > > M3devel at elegosoft.com > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > > *************************************** > > > > > > -- > 312-444-2124 > 301-578-7884 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/50945171/attachment.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 21:34:14 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:34:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <20110628155441.GA3406@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <1309289654.41394.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: in that terms, it's good to check the "how to solve" (most recent version of it I know about) [1] pedagogy, It was "solved" their approach for programs "how to program" e.g HtP in University of Kent [2], see: http://books.google.com/books?id=jqk9hcIrWegC&lpg=PA324&ots=u1NBWS9ZSC&dq=how%20to%20solve%20it%20modula3&pg=PA324#v=onepage&q&f=false The book hot to design programs is not written in Modula-3 either tough they created accompanying material for problem solving, if you may want to check it to compare against HtDP approach for instance, see it here: http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/djb/probSolving.html Another I approach I know about googling was an appealing one at SUNY Stony Brook [3] using "black-box" Bertrand Meyer's book approach [4]: http://books.google.com/books?id=bFIRTXkLT74C&lpg=PA379&vq=Modula-3&dq=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F7241449%2FObjectOriented-Software-Construction&pg=PA379#v=onepage&q&f=false (book's 2nd edition available from scribd.com, see: http.//www.scribd.com/doc/7241449/ObjectOriented-Software-Construction although I don't know about accompanying CD-ROM about. I would like to ask their pupils (how, I don't know, social nets maybe, google survey, fb like or not ) what was the outcome or results from their students which of the following worked better so we may don't want the worse or at least improve one: My pick would be the first though I think we could create several options, like a combination of both, in that sense, I know University of Miami did research and created animation material, perhaps would be nice to ask them too, Juno-2 would be the perfect full-blown IDE (don't know how to integrate in cm3IDE either could be a matter of of applet, say an oblet, or something like Dragisha's framework too comes to mind) for me for applying the [1] concepts see in an object-oriented geometrical way (though I'm biased toward the tools admitted and some experience as well from yet another Professor in CS area, the one of Lego-machine simulator if you may want to see: https://lsl.unal.edu.co/eidos/index.php#SECTION00032000000000000000 ? in 2.2.3) here: http://www.geometricalgebra.net/ But would need to see what they achieve on time, perhaps another survey could ask them some things further. Thanks in advance [1] Z. Michalewicz and D. B. Fogel, How to Solve It: Modern Heuristics. Springer, 2004. [2] H. Glaser, P. H. Hartel, and H. Kuchen, Programming languages: implementations, logics, and programs?: 9th international symposium, PLILP ?97, including a special track on declarative programming languages in education, Southampton, UK, September 1-3, 1997?: proceedings. Springer, 1997. [3] F. Alt, Advances in computers. Academic Press, 2005. [4] B. Meyer, Object-Oriented Software Construction (Book/CD-ROM), 2nd ed. Prentice Hall, 2000. --- El mar, 28/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:54 > On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM > +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, > programmer-for-hire doing python. > > > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is > willing to learn > > programming this summer. > > Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called HtDP), > which > introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, direct, > and gets to the > point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches how to > think about > programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier to > learn almost any > other programming language. It really focusses on > program design, not > the arcana of Scheme. > > I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two in a > course is > effective even if the main point of the course is teaching > another > language (yes even though it means there ends up being less > time to > teach the other language). > > The book is available for purchase, or for free > download. And there's a > draft of a second edition available that can start a > student off with > graphics instead of (or as well as) math. > > Look at its Wikipedia article, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs > for further details. > > The course matches the DrRacket implementation of > scheme. Go ask on > the Racket mailing list for further advice on > deployment. Students > can ask there for study hints, too; the list members are > helpful in > helping the student figure out the problems rather than > just giving > answers. > http://lists.racket-lang.org/ > > -- hendrik > > > > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they > recommended python > > in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". > > Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll be > easier to > understand if they go through the HtDP execrise first. > > > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using > Modula-3 then we > > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less > Juno-2. (Don't > > think I don't respect these projects, I just think > they are too deep > > to be what we present first). > > So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. > > -- hendrik > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 21:46:40 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:46:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <044ED8EA-A876-4804-9394-F3DE51B833A4@m3w.org> Message-ID: <1309290400.50035.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: In fact I know about an interested guy in working in the Python Modula-3 scripting language approach rather than Obliq (Dr. John Kominek at CMU), he was checking the last cm3 distro available (hopefully he got it right) to actually make his dream true, it might be interesting to see that too, certainly would be lot of work to do it and to coordinate (so don't get forks but actual good combination of work), but nevertheless achievable in terms of the compactness of this group of Modula-3 folks. Yeah, I want to do it but properly, so let's see how this can go also a leader would be needed, who are the most indicated to take this decisions (I might have some paper about taking the best approach using fuzzy logic, but hopefully won't needed if we are clear). Let me know your thought, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:13 I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation.? Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 22:18:38 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:18:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 To: m3devel , Jay K Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 From: felipe valdez Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Tue Jun 28 23:04:47 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:04:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309295087.35174.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: indeed the idea is not bad at all neither, since there are many users who want to share every aspect of details on their implementation, the only way to unify this I guess is through something like that a module interface in cm3ide, it could map any relevant data to the server, I don't know how but potentially creating a botnet of people machines that can resemble the spirit of community driven project, whether by gathering people's machines information and retrieving updates, etc. I might try to see whether there is dog food for that I mean we can eat (in the below mentioned project, certainly for others too, SPIN for instance), If we can there must a way of do? it, I know o local project to give underprivileged schools educators a machine to each one (either by old or new to their Professors) and get back any interesting data ideally to maintain their compiler infrastructure working: http://www.computadoresparaeducar.gov.co/website/es/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=359&Itemid=320 (CEDARE center left link certainly interesting) Anyway I would need to ask that too what are their expectations about used stuff, but a donor is very much wanted. Obviously the needed ports are there but certainly miss acknowledge of it since, there are many of the "old" Win* box port's and new ones like mini FreeDOS, so it would it to gather some sort of measurement in the environment and needs and specifications, some of this numbers, like, see: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2615599 http://sites.google.com/site/rugxulo/updates Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 15:30 let us know if after you build your own os, you can fax us the original data. 2011/6/28 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 to Daniel: the message was garbled perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL ? this is how it appeared in my gmail: OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o not the most readable... to Mr. Jay K I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both ends. I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a server like the one you mention. or maybe a community college or government-run university ? good luck I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. 2011/6/27 Send M3devel mailing list submissions to m3devel at elegosoft.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to m3devel-request at elegosoft.com You can reach the person managing the list at m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 To: m3devel , Jay K Message-ID: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. ?- Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 From: felipe valdez Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and Modula-3 I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to grow the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been made, to grow the community. is anybody in this list actively working on this? is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? 2011/6/25 > Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > From: Jay K > Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > To: m3devel > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > - Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > Tru64 > To: m3devel , Jay K > Message-ID: > <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all: > I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its > own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each > row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > AIX > HW?????? > -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- > DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +? ? > ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? > x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? o? > ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????? > |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |??? > o > > > I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps > with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > Thanks in advance > > --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > > De: Jay K > Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: "m3devel" > Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > sorry if this is too repititive. > > > I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > I believe they both work. > They have CPU and memory. > And maybe hard drive. > ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > it. > And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > install from CD. > > > > They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > (NT 4.0). > > > I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it > as Hudson node. > ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > really. > > > We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > But I might set those back up. > > > ?- Jay > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > M3devel mailing list > M3devel at elegosoft.com > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > *************************************** > -- 312-444-2124 301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ M3devel mailing list M3devel at elegosoft.com https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 *************************************** -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -- 312-444-2124301-578-7884 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 00:46:27 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:46:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309290400.50035.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309301187.19492.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: but we can't afford to forget the only reason why Obliq being the first agent language, wasn't picked for Internet scripting language, Professor Abd?n S?nchez Sossa here told me recently it was by a hair that it wasn't picked (it is Modula-3/Obliq so light-weight) for sure it is! There are some dinosaurs out there very scary. But I don't see anything ill in the python out there no that old in itself :) See: http://books.google.com/books?ei=ilUKTvTmDfC00AGwxbyvAQ&ct=result&id=9Io_AQAAIAAJ&dq=modula3+environment&q=modula#search_anchor Thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Dragi?a Duri?" CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 14:46 Hi all: In fact I know about an interested guy in working in the Python Modula-3 scripting language approach rather than Obliq (Dr. John Kominek at CMU), he was checking the last cm3 distro available (hopefully he got it right) to actually make his dream true, it might be interesting to see that too, certainly would be lot of work to do it and to coordinate (so don't get forks but actual good combination of work), but nevertheless achievable in terms of the compactness of this group of Modula-3 folks. Yeah, I want to do it but properly, so let's see how this can go also a leader would be needed, who are the most indicated to take this decisions (I might have some paper about taking the best approach using fuzzy logic, but hopefully won't needed if we are clear). Let me know your thought, thanks in advance --- El mar, 28/6/11, Dragi?a Duri? escribi?: De: Dragi?a Duri? Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." CC: "felipe valdez" , m3devel at elegosoft.com Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:13 I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, programmer-for-hire doing python. My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son who is willing to learn programming this summer. His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, they recommended python in the end and the best argument I saw was: PyGTK". My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users using Modula-3 then we must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, less Juno-2. (Don't think I don't respect these projects, I just think they are too deep to be what we present first). Just because lots of us here think garbage collector (not function, but algorithms and code) is cool it doesn't mean it is Modula-3 "selling point"! I have some "down to Earth" things done with Modula-3 like FastCGI, PDF with TTF subsetting, scripting engine, runtime support for shared libraries (think plugins here)... Also some GTK+.. I believe other people here did various things of same "down to Earth" class... For lots of people Python-is-good just because they did a lot of binding automation.? Can we do it too? Can we make Modula-3 down-to-Earth? Think GUIs, Think Databases, Think Scripting/Gluing engine, Think easy to install distributions (people here did a lot to achieve this), Think Robotics. I think we can. But not on same list where people dig internals and hack gcc. m3distro, for example... And along that way - m3user, m3newbie. To that end, I am willing to contribute majority of my code and help straighten it on Linux, OSX and Windows. But we need a coordinator for this, someone to drive Modula-3 nearer to kid next door. Daniel, you? dd On Jun 28, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. wrote: Ji all: I think IMHO that the users capabilities are not the main issue here, user's ideal it might, I believe there are several examples of that, Multimedia Modula-3, Jigsaw Modula-3 Modular-oriented programming, Object-Oriented programming (Obliq), hi-tech applications Juno-2, ESC (Simplify) and they're just a few I can mention, but I'm sure there are others Algorithm Animation, etc. Given that I think still there are several issues, one of them portability, however a lot of work onto that before and now, in Win* systems, original Win32 platform and so I guess is the matter of interest to keep it alive, the ones will ell how much you can get of new old users (again ideals talking about here, i.e Cvsup, etc). Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mika at async.caltech.edu Wed Jun 29 09:34:42 2011 From: mika at async.caltech.edu (Mika Nystrom) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 00:34:42 -0700 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1309292318.20803.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110629073442.540EB1A2079@async.async.caltech.edu> Some time ago, I shared the details for accessing by anonymous CVS the source code for my Scheme-in-Modula-3 system. It's based on Norvig's JScheme (but as it is in Modula I call it MScheme) and has all the same features (almost-complete version of R4RS) and more. The niftiest bit is that you can call Modula procedures and methods directly from Scheme; you can also override methods in Modula objects with Scheme procedures. That's all done with a stub generator based on the Network Objects stub generator. All that stuff is included. I use the system daily on "mission-critical" applications and it is relatively complete. Documentation, speed, and size of the executable are its weak spots. How to get it: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous at pluto.gcapltd.com:/home/gcap-public-cvs checkout . Mika "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." writes: >--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Hi all: >it's a good idea, but nicer to use the distributed spreadsheet if I may say= > so, so anyone involved can use it: >http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690 > >I will see who can provide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance > > >--- El mar, 28/6/11, felipe valdez escribi=F3: > >De: felipe valdez >Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 >Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com >Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00 > >to Daniel: > >the message was garbled > > > > >perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us in a URL = >? > > > >this is how it appeared in my gmail: > >OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX > > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+------- >DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > > >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + >i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o > > > >not the most readable... > > >to Mr. Jay K=20 > >I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might be in need of a = >computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn linux or whatever. > > >this would reduce shipping cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a publ= >ic IP, but you should still be able to login, if you install hamachi or a s= >imilar product in both ends. > > >I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have access to a ser= >ver like the one you mention. > > >or maybe a community college or government-run university ? >good luck >I'd help you myself, but I live too far away, unfortunately. > > > > >2011/6/27 > > >Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > > m3devel at elegosoft.com > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > > (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > > 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez) > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST) > >From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > >Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > > Tru64 > >To: m3devel , Jay K > >Message-ID: > > <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > > > >Hi all: > >completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, si= >cne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still= > there: > >http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/sum= >mary.html > > > >Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, the= >re is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting = >tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > > >Thanks in advance > > > >--- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. = >escribi?: > > > >De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > >Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" > >Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 > > > >Hi all: > >I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 syste= >m on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own = >win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential= > SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or = >if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > > > > > >OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+------- > >DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? > > o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > >i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | > > ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o > > > > > >I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you co= >uld build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps = >with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > > > >Thanks in advance > > > >--- El vie, 24/6/11, > > Jay K escribi?: > > > >De: Jay K > >Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >Para: "m3devel" > >Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > > > > > > > > > > > >sorry if this is too repititive. > > > > > >I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >I believe they both work. > >They have CPU and memory. > >And maybe hard drive. > >? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing = >it. > >And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to inst= >all from CD. > > > > > > > >They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (= >NT 4.0). > > > > > >I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > > > >Cost is that we split shipping to US. > > > >And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it = >as Hudson node. > >? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, real= >ly. > > > > > >We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it woul= >d be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT > > 4.0/Alpha. > >VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow.= > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and = >maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > > > >I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > > > > > >But I might set those back up. > > > > > >?- Jay > > > >-------------- next part -------------- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: 9f44/attachment-0001.htm> > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 2 > >Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500 > >From: felipe valdez > >Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > >To: m3devel at elegosoft.com > >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > > > >in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and > >Modula-3 > >I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language > >used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to gro= >w > >the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows. > > > >this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been > >made, to grow the community. > > > >is anybody in this list actively working on this? > > > >is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? > > > > > > > > > >2011/6/25 > > > >> Send M3devel mailing list submissions to > >> m3devel at elegosoft.com > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> m3devel-request at elegosoft.com > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> m3devel-owner at elegosoft.com > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K) > >> 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000 > >> From: Jay K > >> Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> To: m3devel > >> Message-ID: > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > >> > >> > >> sorry if this is too repititive. > >> > >> > >> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >> I believe they both work. > >> They have CPU and memory. > >> And maybe hard drive. > >> one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing > >> it. > >> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > >> install from CD. > >> > >> > >> > >> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > >> (NT 4.0). > >> > >> > >> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > >> > >> Cost is that we split shipping to US. > >> > >> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave i= >t > >> as Hudson node. > >> I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > >> really. > >> > >> > >> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > >> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > >> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slo= >w. > >> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >> Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >> Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and > >> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > >> > >> I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >> Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >> PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > >> > >> > >> But I might set those back up. > >> > >> > >> - Jay > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13= >/attachment.html > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 2 > >> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST) > >> From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." > >> Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, > >> Tru64 > >> To: m3devel , Jay K > >> Message-ID: > >> <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > >> > >> Hi all: > >> I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 > >> system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of i= >ts > >> own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through > >> potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on ea= >ch > >> row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS > >> > >> OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | > >> AIX > >> HW?????? > >> -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+= >----------+-----------+------- > >> DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ????? +?= > ? > >> ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +?????? > >> i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????= >? > >> x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? + > >> i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ?????? = >o? > >> ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o???= >??? > >> |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |?= >?? > >> o > >> > >> > >> I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you > >> could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perh= >aps > >> with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. > >> > >> Thanks in advance > >> > >> --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: > >> > >> De: Jay K > >> Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > >> Para: "m3devel" > >> Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> sorry if this is too repititive. > >> > >> > >> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. > >> I believe they both work. > >> They have CPU and memory. > >> And maybe hard drive. > >> ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacin= >g > >> it. > >> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to > >> install from CD. > >> > >> > >> > >> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows > >> (NT 4.0). > >> > >> > >> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. > >> > >> Cost is that we split shipping to US. > >> > >> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave i= >t > >> as Hudson node. > >> ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, > >> really. > >> > >> > >> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. > >> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it > >> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. > >> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slo= >w. > >> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. > >> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. > >> ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. > >> ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) an= >d > >> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). > >> > >> I can also provide for half shipping to USA: > >> ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX > >> ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. > >> > >> > >> But I might set those back up. > >> > >> > >> ?- Jay > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672= >/attachment-0001.htm > > > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> M3devel mailing list > >> M3devel at elegosoft.com > >> https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > >> > >> > >> End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > >> *************************************** > >> > > > > > > > >-- > >312-444-2124 > >301-578-7884 > >-------------- next part -------------- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: 5171/attachment.htm> > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >M3devel mailing list > >M3devel at elegosoft.com > >https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel > > > > > >End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30 > >*************************************** > > > > >--=20 >312-444-2124301-578-7884 > > > > >--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">Hi all:
it's a good idea, but nicer to use= > the distributed spreadsheet if I may say so, so anyone involved can use it= >:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2690

I will see who can pro= >vide a local copy of its sources, thanks in advance


--- El ma= >r, 28/6/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi= >=F3:
n-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">
De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gma= >il.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30
Par= >a: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 12:00

<= >div id=3D"yiv1784092051">to Daniel:>
new', monospace">
tyle-span" > face=3D"'courier new', monospace">the message was garbled
> >

ass=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
_quote">perhaps you can create a google docs free table and show it to us i= >n a URL ?
>
>

84092051gmail_quote">this is how it appeared in my gmail:
=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
ote">
r-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">OS??= >????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIXr> > >HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+-------
DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |= >??????? o??????? | ???
o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |= >?? +??????
> >i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????= >? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? |
_quote">pse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> ?????? o? = >? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o?????= >? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +?? |?= >?? o
> >

51gmail_quote">
not the mo= >st readable...

class=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
il_quote"> >to Mr. Jay K
>

51gmail_quote">I recommend you seek poor schools in your Area, that might b= >e in need of a computer, and provide them it so that the kids can learn lin= >ux or whatever.
> >
this would reduce shippin= >g cost, as for ssh, perhaps they won't have a public IP, but you should sti= >ll be able to login, if you install hamachi or a similar product in both en= >ds.
> >

51gmail_quote">I'm sure there are schools in your zipcode that don't have a= >ccess to a server like the one you mention.
51gmail_quote">
> >or maybe a community college or government-run university ?
=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">
ote">good luck

class=3D"yiv1784092051gmail_quote">I'd help you myself, but I live too far = >away, unfortunately.
> >

51gmail_quote">

= >
2011/6/27 < rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:m3devel-request at elegosoft.com" target= >=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosoft.com">m3devel= >-request at elegosoft.com>
> >
lid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Send= > M3devel mailing list submissions to
> =3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel at elegoso= >ft.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> t.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/= >mailman/listinfo/m3devel
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> " target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosoft.com"= >>m3devel-request at elegosoft.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-owner at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel-owner at elegosoft.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
> 2. Re: M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 (felipe valdez)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 (BST)
>From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <ilto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddabe= >navidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L,
> Tru64
>To: m3devel <" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel= >@elegosoft.com>, Jay K <.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at co= >rnell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>Message-ID:
> <lClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose= >?to=3D1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com">130919= >3412.10741.YahooMailClassic at web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>
>Hi all:
>completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, si= >cne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still= > there:
>manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html">http://www.cs.tut.= >fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html
>
>Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, the= >re is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting = >tough to see it on a Chicago/PC!
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>--- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <ymailto=3D"mailto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/comp= >ose?to=3Ddabenavidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:
>
>De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddabenavi= >desd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64> >Para: "m3devel" <.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel at elegosoft.com>, "Jay K" <to:jay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.kr= >ell at cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15
>
>Hi all:
>I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 syste= >m on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own = >win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential= > SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or = >if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS
> > >
>OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | A= >IX
>HW?????? -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------= >------+----------+-----------+-------
>DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ???
> o???? | ????? +? ? ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +??????
>i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ?????? = >x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
>i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? |
> ?????? o? ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |??= >???? o?????? |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |??= >???? +?? |??? o
>
>
>I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you co= >uld build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps = >with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>--- El vie, 24/6/11,
> Jay K <get=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.krell at co= >rnell.edu> escribi?:
>
>De: Jay K <target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.krell= >@cornell.edu>
>Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
>Para: "m3devel" <.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3d= >evel at elegosoft.com>
>Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55
>
>
>
>
>
>sorry if this is too repititive.
>
>
>I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>I believe they both work.
>They have CPU and memory.
>And maybe hard drive.
>? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing = >it.
>And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to inst= >all from CD.
>
>
>
>They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (= >NT 4.0).
>
>
>I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>
>Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>
>And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it = >as Hudson node.
>? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, real= >ly.
>
>
>We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions.r> >NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it woul= >d be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT
> 4.0/Alpha.
>VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow.= > I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and = >maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>
>I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>
>
>But I might set those back up.
>
>
>?- Jay
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: <t.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/attachment-0001.htm">= >http://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/52839f44/a= >ttachment-0001.htm>
> > >
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:31:09 -0500
>From: felipe valdez <gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfelipevaldez at gmail.co= >m">felipevaldez at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29
>To: _blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3devel at elegosoft.c= >om
>Message-ID: <-fDhyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DB= >ANLkTinc3Nk9NLQTBbAN-fDhyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com">BANLkTinc3Nk9NLQTBbAN-fD= >hyHDGtjeb6g at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>
>in an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, we compared GO and> >Modula-3
>I said that the main difference, is that the GO people want their language<= >br> >used by other people, but the Modula-3 people seemed too busy to try to gro= >w
>the community, by providing an easy to use installer on windows.
>
>this lead me to think hard, because, I'm not sure of what efforts have been= >
>made, to grow the community.
>
>is anybody in this list actively working on this?
>
>is having a larger modula3 community, desirable?
>
>
>
>
>2011/6/25 <ft.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel-request at elegosof= >t.com">m3devel-request at elegosoft.com>
>
>> Send M3devel mailing list submissions to
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>>
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>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> >> than "Re: Contents of M3devel digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 (Jay K)
>> 2. Re: hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64
>> (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= >
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:55:50 +0000
>> From: Jay K <l.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">ja= >y.krell at cornell.edu>
>> Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64<= >br> >> To: m3devel <t.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3= >devel at elegosoft.com>
>> Message-ID: <COL101-W5153CD2C4CB5C3B2614650E6520 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>> sorry if this is too repititive.
>>
>>
>> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>> I believe they both work.
>> They have CPU and memory.
>> And maybe hard drive.
>> one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replac= >ing
>> it.
>> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to= >
>> install from CD.
>>
>>
>>
>> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Wind= >ows
>> (NT 4.0).
>>
>>
>> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>>
>> Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>>
>> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leav= >e it
>> as Hudson node.
>> I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space,<= >br> >> really.
>>
>>
>> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versio= >ns.
>> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it= >
>> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha.
>> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very = >slow.
>> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>> Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>> Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) = >and
>> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>>
>> I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>> Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>> PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>>
>>
>> But I might set those back up.
>>
>>
>> - Jay
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> m/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachment.html">http://m= >ail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110624/a3402b13/attachmen= >t.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:15:02 +0100 (BST)
>> From: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <=3D"mailto:dabenavidesd at yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to= >=3Ddabenavidesd at yahoo.es">dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
>> Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L,> >> Tru64
>> To: m3devel <t.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com">m3= >devel at elegosoft.com>, Jay K <o:jay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.kre= >ll at cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>> <oMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/com= >pose?to=3D1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com">13= >08964502.58199.YahooMailClassic at web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi all:
>> I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3<= >br> >> system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server o= >f its
>> own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through<= >br> >> potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on= > each
>> row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS
>>
>> OS??????? | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-U= >X |
>> AIX
>> HW??????
>> -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+--------------= >--+----------+-----------+-------
>> DECaxp?? o????? | ?????? o?????? |??????? o??????? | ??? o???? | ?????= > +? ?
>> ? ? | ? ?? x ?? | ? ?? + ?? |?? +??????
>> i86pc??????? o????? | ?????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? +??? | ??= >????
>> x??????? | ???? x??? | ???? x ?? | ? +
>> i86smp???? o????? |??????? o?????? | ?????? o??????? | ??? + ?? | ????= >?? o?
>> ? ? ? |? ? ? x ?? | ?? ? x ?? |?? + ??? Ppc ???????? o?????? |?????? o= >??????
>> |???????? o?????? |????? +??? |?????? o??????? |????? x??? |?????? +??= > |???
>> o
>>
>>
>> I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if y= >ou
>> could build? the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that p= >erhaps
>> with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K <ay.krell at cornell.edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell@= >cornell.edu">jay.krell at cornell.edu> escribi?:
>>
>> De: Jay K <edu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djay.krell at cornell.edu">jay.= >krell at cornell.edu>
>> Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64r> >> Para: "m3devel" <osoft.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dm3devel at elegosoft.com= >">m3devel at elegosoft.com>
>> Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> sorry if this is too repititive.
>>
>>
>> I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls.
>> I believe they both work.
>> They have CPU and memory.
>> And maybe hard drive.
>> ? one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-repla= >cing
>> it.
>> And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to= >
>> install from CD.
>>
>>
>>
>> They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Wind= >ows
>> (NT 4.0).
>>
>>
>> I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs.
>>
>> Cost is that we split shipping to US.
>>
>> And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leav= >e it
>> as Hudson node.
>> ? I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space,= >
>> really.
>>
>>
>> We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versio= >ns.
>> NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it= >
>> would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha.
>> VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very = >slow.
>> I'd like to give it another chance on another machine.
>> The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them.
>> ? Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD.
>> ? Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo)= > and
>> maybe others (VMS? Tru64?).
>>
>> I can also provide for half shipping to USA:
>> ?Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX
>> ?PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD.
>>
>>
>> But I might set those back up.
>>
>>
>> ?- Jay
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> m/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attachment-0001.htm">http= >://mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110625/786e2672/attac= >hment-0001.htm
> > >> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> M3devel mailing list
>> "_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DM3devel at elegosoft.com">M3devel at elegosoft.= >com
>> om/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mai= >lman/listinfo/m3devel
>>
>>
>> End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29
>> ***************************************
>>
>
>
>
>--
>312-444-2124
>301-578-7884
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: <t.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/50945171/attachment.htm">http:= >//mail.elegosoft.com/pipermail/m3devel/attachments/20110627/50945171/attach= >ment.htm>
> > >
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>M3devel mailing list
>nk" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DM3devel at elegosoft.com">M3devel at elegosoft.coma>
>i-bin/mailman/listinfo/m3devel">https://mail.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/mailman/= >listinfo/m3devel
>
>
>End of M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 30
>***************************************
>



--
312-444-2124
301-57= >8-7884


>
>
>--0-1068858223-1309292318=:20803-- From wagner at elegosoft.com Wed Jun 29 12:37:51 2011 From: wagner at elegosoft.com (Olaf Wagner) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:37:51 +0200 Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110629123751.884k79uq0484woss@mx0.elegosoft.com> Quoting felipe valdez : > 2011/6/28 >> >> Quoting felipe valdez : >> > is anybody in this list actively working on this? >> >> Probably not. >> None of the regular users seems to have both time and interest for >> much advertising. > > this is a very sad thing to hear. > I wonder why... Everybody deeply involved in his work or research projects? >> > is having a larger modula3 community, desirable? >> >> Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is much appreciated. >> But you cannot command support in an open source project; people >> will just do what interests them. > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, > which leads me to think really hard about, > given this fact, how did it get so large and complex at all! > > in fact how did any OS project did got like that! > > it must really be in the interest of some people! Modula-3 was developed mostly at the Systems Research Center of Digital, though it was never a sold product of them. The code base was always free, and later used in university research and teaching and the base for a commercial distribution (by Critical Mass Inc.), which then was released as open source again some years later. Development was mostly done in university or enterprise research labs; there never was much of an independent user community. There are some dozen users left with very different application areas and interests. Any newcomers are welcome and contributions are greatly appreciated, regardless if of technical of advertising nature. Olaf -- Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 http://www.elegosoft.com | Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | USt-IdNr: DE163214194 From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 16:22:28 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:22:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <1309289654.41394.YahooMailClassic@web29711.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309357348.20005.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: I just saw 6 days before was published yet another one [1] on Polya's method: http://books.google.com/books?id=4QKcaXrVZb0C Thanks in advance [1] U. Daepp and P. Gorkin, Reading, Writing, and Proving: A Closer Look at Mathematics. Springer, 2011. --- El mar, 28/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 29 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com, "Hendrik Boom" > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 14:34 > Hi all: > in that terms, it's good to check the "how to solve" (most > recent version of it I know about) [1] pedagogy, It was > "solved" their approach for programs "how to program" e.g > HtP in University of Kent [2], see: > http://books.google.com/books?id=jqk9hcIrWegC&lpg=PA324&ots=u1NBWS9ZSC&dq=how%20to%20solve%20it%20modula3&pg=PA324#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > The book hot to design programs is not written in Modula-3 > either tough they created accompanying material for problem > solving, if you may want to check it to compare against HtDP > approach for instance, see it here: > http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/djb/probSolving.html > > Another I approach I know about googling was an appealing > one at SUNY Stony Brook [3] using "black-box" Bertrand > Meyer's book approach [4]: > http://books.google.com/books?id=bFIRTXkLT74C&lpg=PA379&vq=Modula-3&dq=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F7241449%2FObjectOriented-Software-Construction&pg=PA379#v=onepage&q&f=false > > (book's 2nd edition available from scribd.com, see: > http.//www.scribd.com/doc/7241449/ObjectOriented-Software-Construction > > although I don't know about accompanying CD-ROM about. > > I would like to ask their pupils (how, I don't know, social > nets maybe, google survey, fb like or not ) what was the > outcome or results from their students which of the > following worked better so we may don't want the worse or at > least improve one: > > My pick would be the first though I think we could create > several options, like a combination of both, in that sense, > I know University of Miami did research and created > animation material, perhaps would be nice to ask them too, > Juno-2 would be the perfect full-blown IDE (don't know how > to integrate in cm3IDE either could be a matter of of > applet, say an oblet, or something like Dragisha's framework > too comes to mind) for me for applying the [1] concepts see > in an object-oriented geometrical way (though I'm biased > toward the tools admitted and some experience as well from > yet another Professor in CS area, the one of Lego-machine > simulator if you may want to see: > https://lsl.unal.edu.co/eidos/index.php#SECTION00032000000000000000 > ? > in 2.2.3) here: > http://www.geometricalgebra.net/ > > But would need to see what they achieve on time, perhaps > another survey could ask them some things further. > > Thanks in advance > > [1] Z. Michalewicz and D. B. Fogel, How to Solve It: Modern > Heuristics. Springer, 2004. > > [2] H. Glaser, P. H. Hartel, and H. Kuchen, Programming > languages: implementations, logics, and programs?: 9th > international symposium, PLILP ?97, including a > special track on declarative programming languages in > education, Southampton, UK, September 1-3, 1997?: > proceedings. Springer, 1997. > > [3] F. Alt, Advances in computers. Academic Press, 2005. > > [4] B. Meyer, Object-Oriented Software Construction > (Book/CD-ROM), 2nd ed. Prentice Hall, 2000. > > > > > --- El mar, 28/6/11, Hendrik Boom > escribi?: > > > De: Hendrik Boom > > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue > 29 > > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > > Fecha: martes, 28 de junio, 2011 10:54 > > On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:13:18PM > > +0200, Dragi?a Duri? wrote: > > > I had a discussion few days ago with a friend, > > programmer-for-hire doing python. > > > > > > My question is - what to teach my 14yr old son > who is > > willing to learn > > > programming this summer. > > > > Start with "How To Design Programs" (often called > HtDP), > > which > > introduces Scheme, not Modula 3. It's simple, > direct, > > and gets to the > > point quite quickly and elegantly. It teaches > how to > > think about > > programs, a skill which makes it vastly easier > to > > learn almost any > > other programming language. It really focusses > on > > program design, not > > the arcana of Scheme. > > > > I've heard that starting with HtDP for a week or two > in a > > course is > > effective even if the main point of the course is > teaching > > another > > language (yes even though it means there ends up being > less > > time to > > teach the other language). > > > > The book is available for purchase, or for free > > download. And there's a > > draft of a second edition available that can start a > > student off with > > graphics instead of (or as well as) math. > > > > Look at its Wikipedia article, > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Design_Programs > > for further details. > > > > The course matches the DrRacket implementation of > > scheme. Go ask on > > the Racket mailing list for further advice on > > deployment. Students > > can ask there for study hints, too; the list members > are > > helpful in > > helping the student figure out the problems rather > than > > just giving > > answers. > > http://lists.racket-lang.org/ > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > His answer: "I remember slashdot discussion, > they > > recommended python > > > in the end and the best argument I saw was: > PyGTK". > > > > Maybe that a good language for beginners, but it'll > be > > easier to > > understand if they go through the HtDP execrise > first. > > > > > > My conclusion: If we want (do we?) more users > using > > Modula-3 then we > > > must think more GTK+ less Algorithm Animation, > less > > Juno-2. (Don't > > > think I don't respect these projects, I just > think > > they are too deep > > > to be what we present first). > > > > So will Modula 3 be easier to understand after HtDP. > > > > -- hendrik > > > From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Wed Jun 29 16:51:35 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:51:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <20110629123751.884k79uq0484woss@mx0.elegosoft.com> Message-ID: <1309359095.55345.YahooMailClassic@web29718.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: just in case matters there were coins about the same time Wirth and fellows wrote their ideas on paper: http://books.google.com/books?ei=5zcLTpCmGpGUtwfflY1b&ct=result&id=g4hVAAAAMAAJ&dq=modula3+computer+language&q=modula-3#search_anchor by Namir Clement Shammas, although totally unrelated by the way it describes as I can see so far, nevertheless perhaps considering this ideas could be a better way of realize what the world was like in that time, and why they should be taken on account just in case it matters today. Still others follow their own "Paradise" dreams like: http://books.google.com/books?id=IDPjVzBRXFIC&lpg=PA21&dq=modula3%20modula2&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false But agree Modula-3 pay it's bills: http://books.google.com/books?ei=wjoLTrmOHdGgtgelp6hp&ct=result&id=UdtQAAAAMAAJ&dq=exceptions+modula3&q=modula#search_anchor Interesting enough is that there was a Turbo Modula-2, I believe was object oriented, never saw anything of its code. What do you think of them? Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Olaf Wagner escribi?: > De: Olaf Wagner > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] M3devel Digest, Vol 56, Issue 31 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 05:37 > Quoting felipe valdez : > > > 2011/6/28 > >> > >> Quoting felipe valdez : > > >> > is anybody in this list actively working on > this? > >> > >> Probably not. > >> None of the regular users seems to have both time > and interest for > >> much advertising. > > > > this is a very sad thing to hear. > > I wonder why... > > Everybody deeply involved in his work or research > projects? > > >> > is having a larger modula3 community, > desirable? > >> > >> Of course it is; any help in keeping m3 alive is > much appreciated. > >> But you cannot command support in an open source > project; people > >> will just do what interests them. > > > > this I guess is just true of any Open source project, > > which leads me to think really hard about, > > given this fact, how did it get so large and complex > at all! > > > > in fact how did any OS project did got like that! > > > > it must really be in the interest of some people! > > Modula-3 was developed mostly at the Systems Research > Center of > Digital, though it was never a sold product of them. The > code base > was always free, and later used in university research and > teaching > and the base for a commercial distribution (by Critical > Mass Inc.), > which then was released as open source again some years > later. > > Development was mostly done in university or enterprise > research labs; > there never was much of an independent user community. > > There are some dozen users left with very different > application areas > and interests. > > Any newcomers are welcome and contributions are greatly > appreciated, > regardless if of technical of advertising nature. > > Olaf > -- > Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH > > Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25 / Geb?ude 12, 13355 Berlin, Germany > phone: +49 30 23 45 86 96 mobile: +49 177 2345 > 869 fax: +49 30 23 45 86 95 > http://www.elegosoft.com | > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Olaf Wagner | Sitz: Berlin > Handelregister: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 77719 | > USt-IdNr: DE163214194 > > From jay.krell at cornell.edu Wed Jun 29 23:55:34 2011 From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:55:34 +0000 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1308964502.58199.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > completely forgot the Win9* systems That is probably best -- to just forget it. > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! But if you really want, many releases of Modula-3 should work fine on Win9x. And if anyone really seriously wants it, the current code can easily be tested and fixed to work on Win9x. There's no point in Cygwinb20. That is really really old. Cygwin 1.5 works on Win9x. Though 1.7 is current and doesn't work on Win9x. I really don't have much time lately to install anything on these systems before shipping them out. I'm too busy with other things, including even some Modula-3 stuff maybe. - Jay Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:50:12 +0100 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es To: m3devel at elegosoft.com; jay.krell at cornell.edu Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Hi all: completely forgot the Win9* systems, perhaps the idea is not bad at all, sicne many of those machines were in emerging markets already and maybe still there: http://www.cs.tut.fi/lintula/manual/modula3/modula-3/html/m3ug-oopsla94/summary.html Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. escribi?: De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" , "Jay K" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 20:15 Hi all: I know it may sound odd, but how about installing the full working M3 system on every one of it (thus you kind of sell the as a CM3 server of its own win*/*ix flavor) , does someone can create such a server (through potential SPIN OS Sphinix)? I mean code generate for every platform on each row, or if you have multiple OS then built a matrix hw x OS OS | Linux | FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Tru64 | Mac OSX | NT4.0 | HP-UX | AIX HW -----------+---------------+----------------+----------+----------------+----------+-----------+------- DECaxp o | o | o | o | + | x | + | + i86pc o | o | o | + | x | x | x | + i86smp o | o | o | + | o | x | x | + Ppc o | o | o | + | o | x | + | o I myself would need some help to install any of those systems, so if you could build the system in itself would be wonderful. Best than that perhaps with alternate multiBoot and/or in original conditions. Thanks in advance --- El vie, 24/6/11, Jay K escribi?: De: Jay K Asunto: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "m3devel" Fecha: viernes, 24 de junio, 2011 15:55 sorry if this is too repititive. I have two AlphaServer DS10Ls. I believe they both work. They have CPU and memory. And maybe hard drive. one had a problem with the hard drive I think and I was/am mid-replacing it. And maybe optical drive -- one has it. I was mid-moving it to other to install from CD. They can run any of: Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VMS, Tru64, Windows (NT 4.0). I can throw in one complete copy of Tru64 5.1b. Box. Manuals. CDs. Cost is that we split shipping to US. And ideally you let me ssh in, get Modula-3 up-and-running, maybe leave it as Hudson node. I.e. you provide space and electricity. At least temporarily. Space, really. We already got Tru64 (re)working within the past year. On older versions. NT 4.0 is too much work, until/unless we have a C backend. And then it would be interesting, really. I can provide/acquire NT 4.0/Alpha. VMS is almost done. And otherwise available to me..but seemingly very slow. I'd like to give it another chance on another machine. The others should all be easy and I would bother with doing them. Hudson wouldn't likely be viable on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD. Hudson should be easily viable on Linux (Debian 5.0; current Gentoo) and maybe others (VMS? Tru64?). I can also provide for half shipping to USA: Mac laptop for PPC_LINUX PC laptops for I386_LINUX, I386_OPENBSD. But I might set those back up. - Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu Jun 30 03:35:54 2011 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:35:54 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: References: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > completely forgot the Win9* systems > > That is probably best -- to just forget it. I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it on once in a blue moon. It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would really be useful, I could try Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the effort. > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I tried running it once, and it was most mysterious. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 30 17:09:00 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:09:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <1309446540.70332.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: perhaps, you could check if this recording makes sense, i says at the beginning is an excerpt (So a good idea would get a copy of the original). http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=8026 Anyway, the major critics of this is the supposed to be low speed of execution, I think if this run on a Win9* pc, I can just to conclude that: 1. The system is functional enough to run in a 199* system. 2. The critics are true if the system is stress-tested (see 1 for this info) 3. The idea behind the constraint solver is not enough compiler-enabled optimized for today's applied benchmarks If the above is true then there might be some techniques to make that happen In example tune the compiler as they did in development. As it hasn't been too much updated besides a JVM-based backend there is a big question how much of this is good to pick, but JVM-based backend http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html doesn't handle the constraint solver at all. So we might check what have been the main constraint solver techniques developed for that purpose (lately logic analyzers, but sold as a kit, perhaps doable on Modula-3, perhaps and ASIP but can we build one of such, perhaps yes with some library called m3tools): http://members.tripod.com/srini_seetharam/thesis.pdf Back indee in DEC-SRC they offered to license the toolkit in other platforms, perhaps somebody would asked about it, I'm not aware of that but it seems they could seek that in the future. Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 20:35 > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM > +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > > > completely forgot the Win9* > systems > > > > That is probably best -- to just > forget it. > > I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it > on once in a blue moon. > It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would > really be useful, I could try > Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the > effort. > > > > > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if > the most important of tools is that, > > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it > runs smoothly, > > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I > tried running it once, and > it was most mysterious. > > -- hendrik > From rcolebur at SCIRES.COM Thu Jun 30 20:35:36 2011 From: rcolebur at SCIRES.COM (Coleburn, Randy) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:35:36 -0400 Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> References: <1309193412.10741.YahooMailClassic@web29701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110630013554.GB31487@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: Back in the early days of cm3, I did run some Modula3 stuff on Windows 95/98 before NT4.0. My recollection is that Win98 fared better than Win95, but that all was much better on NT4.0. I seem to recall having more trouble with multithreaded programs on Win9x and also the garbage collector. I think you had to run with @M3novm parameter to disable virtual motion on Win9x. Regards, Randy Coleburn -----Original Message----- From: Hendrik Boom [mailto:hendrik at topoi.pooq.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 9:36 PM To: m3devel at elegosoft.com Subject: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > completely forgot the Win9* systems > > That is probably best -- to just forget it. I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it on once in a blue moon. It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would really be useful, I could try Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the effort. > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if the most important of tools is that, > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it runs smoothly, > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I tried running it once, and it was most mysterious. -- hendrik From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es Thu Jun 30 21:00:41 2011 From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:00:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1309460441.46490.YahooMailClassic@web29707.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all: if you ask me why then would I share the question with you, can you make this graphic in postcript easily in how many seconds can you draw this document p13 in the screen in ps or eps: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.7537 If you can build such quicker than and more than that edit -> compile -> view quickly then you're ready to go. Think in ULSI and VLSI systems doing this for the work stuff (if anything us included) . The Ps (already present) or JVM backends (see: http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html ) are quick enough, but to what it makes that is the constraint solver, which is indeed very advanced combining symbolic and numerical solving using provided initial approximation. So at least less fpu cycles to help the later are welcome (e.g any hardware speed-up might solve this better). I'm not really sure how much of this does Modula-3 as for I know in i86pc boxes it doesn't really do that (i.e it doesn't accelerate FPU in the intended way, e.g doesn't handle in same cycles as you said normally), but SGI, DEC, perhaps PA-RISC, and PPC are other history (this makes again more important to keep this older machine ports, as for reference points, as I don't have such good machines to keep it alive with some cm3ide server on).? Experimental platforms might be for reference as well: http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw32/dobson.html Anyway to test i86pc or possible *DOS implementations will need something like NTHydra or so UI client of MIPSr4000, Alpha, i86pc in NT, or so to do in-situ testing and others alike as well as Zeus sessions available (see man Juno.1 for more details). Thanks in advance --- El jue, 30/6/11, felipe valdez escribi?: De: felipe valdez Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." Fecha: jueves, 30 de junio, 2011 10:55 2011/6/30 Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. Hi all: perhaps, you could check if this recording makes sense, i says at the beginning is an excerpt (So a good idea would get a copy of the original). http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=8026 this was actually very intersting and educational! it reminded me of "the mother of all demso", by douglas engelbert. Anyway, the major critics of this is the supposed to be low speed of execution, I think if this run on a Win9* pc, I can just to conclude that: 1. The system is functional enough to run in a 199* system. certainly, one could conclude that... but just trowing more cycles at it, doesn't make it faster... 2. The critics are true if the system is stress-tested (see 1 for this info) 3. The idea behind the constraint solver is not enough compiler-enabled optimized for today's applied benchmarks If the above is true then there might be some techniques to make that happen In example tune the compiler as they did in development. in this case, I don't think performance is the responsability of the compiler writers, but of the sofwtare writer. As it hasn't been too much updated besides a JVM-based backend there is a big question how much of this is good to pick, but JVM-based backend http://moscova.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/srcreport.html doesn't handle the constraint solver at all. So we might check what have been the main constraint solver techniques developed for that purpose (lately logic analyzers, but sold as a kit, perhaps doable on Modula-3, perhaps and ASIP but can we build one to what end, would we build one exactly?other than to satisfy this curiosity? does this have a real-world application? I fail to think of one... of such, perhaps yes with some library called m3tools): http://members.tripod.com/srini_seetharam/thesis.pdf Back indee in DEC-SRC they offered to license the toolkit in other platforms, perhaps somebody would asked about it, I'm not aware of that but it seems they could seek that in the future. given that cm3 used to be paid, but now is free, I think the market would go for that which is cheaper.therefore, a commercial implementation, of a not-widely used language, seems to be only desirable, for those who *already* have legacy systems based on such tecnology, and people would probably not "buy" into it, so that they could develop new software, given free (and open source) alternatives. also, since the main use of m3 seems to be research, and researches are often trying to use free sofwtare, and getting away from paid tools, it seems plausible to say, with a certain level of certainty, that this (license tooklit) is very unlikely to happen, in my opinion Thanks in advance --- El mi?, 29/6/11, Hendrik Boom escribi?: > De: Hendrik Boom > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] hardware/software sales.. AlphaServer DS10L, Tru64 > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com > Fecha: mi?rcoles, 29 de junio, 2011 20:35 > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:55:34PM > +0000, Jay K wrote: > > > > > completely forgot the Win9* > systems > > > > That is probably best -- to just > forget it. > > I still have a working windows 95 system. I turn it > on once in a blue moon. > It dual-boots Windows 95 and linux. If it would > really be useful, I could try > Moduls-3-ing on it, but it is probably not be worth the > effort. > > > > > > > > Finally a word about of Juno-2, if > the most important of tools is that, > > there is a way to do it, I run it on cygwinb20, it > runs smoothly, > > interesting tough to see it on a Chicago/PC! > > I've never figured out waht Juno is supposed to do. I > tried running it once, and > it was most mysterious. > > -- hendrik > -- 312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: