From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  2 02:07:35 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 01:07:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
Message-ID: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf


From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 18:03:28 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:03:28 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
In-Reply-To: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_--MxKwz4zA1pV=w56kDNUavQ9FuQ+=775eB9CX5y8aYOg@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel, thanks for the link.

out of curiosity, I entered to this url:

http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/

and found even more interesting stuff.


thanks, I really appreciate it!


On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf
>



-- 
312-444-2124
Skype: f3l.headhunter
Casa: 8043901
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Sun Sep  4 22:54:41 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 21:54:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_--MxKwz4zA1pV=w56kDNUavQ9FuQ+=775eB9CX5y8aYOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1315169681.37511.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
Yeah, that's good. I think the importance of the conclusion was laetr confirmed in the papers on await statement "primitive" developed for a Modula-3 Thread implementation on Pthread systems, anyways, just the same conclusion if I may say so.
In other affairs I have searched and found that the formal specification of Modula-3 was done apparently in an effort by DEC-SRC Luca and Greg and DEC-PRL staff, but after written it was proved and it never ended, it was like 30 pages long.
It could be nice to see whether we could rework it and test it against a specific language formalizations in terms of results achieved of the new mathematical frameworks based on that of mathematics constructions theory like that of Feferman, he seemed to propose a new framework to redefine mathematics on which all the normal theories fit? and applicable as a lambda calculus? as a way to include the formal description of a computer language:
http://turing.une.edu.au/~iam/Data/Papers/93ic.ps

This is perhaps the most advanced or the state of the art framework for doing that, interesting to see what works with that, see Modula-3 there could be very nice.

Thanks in advance
--- El vie, 2/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: viernes, 2 de septiembre, 2011 11:03

Daniel, thanks for the link.

out of curiosity, I entered to this url:


http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/


and found even more interesting stuff.

thanks, I really appreciate it!



On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf




-- 
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Tue Sep  6 22:57:55 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 21:57:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
Message-ID: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly became truth, see:

http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0

Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for Java...)
http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

Thanks in advance


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Tue Sep  6 23:12:14 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:12:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.
Thanks in advance

--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57
> Hi all:
> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand
> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly
> became truth, see:
> 
> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0
> 
> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the
> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his
> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to
> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of
> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for
> Java...)
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ
> 
> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a
> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?
> 
> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp
> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this
> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 


From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep  8 19:05:15 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:05:15 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-_vYWNn0namq3iT41iAsaKsOWpV671Vib99Z19+qhi0LA@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?

is change desirable?



On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's
> enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.
> Thanks in advance
>
> --- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> > Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
> jokes
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> > Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57
> > Hi all:
> > I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand
> > an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly
> > became truth, see:
> >
> >
> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0
> >
> > Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the
> > software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his
> > article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to
> > "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
> > By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of
> > unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for
> > Java...)
> > http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ
> >
> > Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a
> > Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?
> >
> > In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp
> > newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this
> > interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>



-- 
312-444-2124
Skype: f3l.headhunter
Casa: 8043901
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  9 01:13:22 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 00:13:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_-_vYWNn0namq3iT41iAsaKsOWpV671Vib99Z19+qhi0LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1315523602.46357.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I think if you admit something is wrong here you quickly realize you don't don't even need a full language to make a revolution with it, you just need to see what went wrong and when, and if you look that then, you see that SUN was working hard Modula-3 until it was closed down DEC-SRC, later the consequences of one thing became everything else in this terms (e.g Obliq JavaScript). If not why Obliq ?-calculus is used to try to fix JavaScript
Can you see and can you imagine where we would be if the chain of events could and would be different, I think a crisis you see coming when something went wrong, can you realize then (I don't know, someones did like the M3 old friend I always talk about), it was Java the problem (I don't think so, but ignorance and disbelief I do think, that's when things went wrong in CS, now I don't want to talk about AI in general, others know that better than me).
Check this for other applications of type systems:
http://www.laputan.org/pub/washington/postscript/hayes.ps

The reason you should understand is because in the time the machines were another history, anything like today's big and useless in terms of theoretical needs:
https://lists.iai.uni-bonn.de/pipermail/swi-prolog/2010/003065.html


Thanks in advance

--- El jue, 8/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 12:05

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?


is change desirable?




On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.

Thanks in advance



--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57

> Hi all:

> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand

> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly

> became truth, see:

>

> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0



>

> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the

> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his

> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to

> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.

> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of

> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for

> Java...)

> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

>

> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a

> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

>

> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp

> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this

> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901




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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  9 23:47:45 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 22:47:45 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315523602.46357.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1315604865.21232.YahooMailClassic@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

HI all:
Even you can go even earlier than that to see what was the market around 80s:
ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/misc/A2_DOCS_GENIELAMP1.pdf

Like ~84 or so, it is claimed Modula-3 was working in Mainframes and Minicomputers, the long time friend had access in a Phillips Professional visit in Netherlands to such systems, where he learned Unix of first hand, this theory would explain as in his country (COL) we didn't have much notice of this things more than in some Calculus Centers Mainframes, sometimes managed by foreign or isolated workers and later all computing directly jumped into Micros in Computer Labs, but I would like to know what happened in other LA countries, or overseas and in US, that would explain us better the theory of the "missing minis" here and "lack" of user-base.
Thanks in advance


--- El jue, 8/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "felipe valdez" <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 18:13

Hi all:
I think if you admit something is wrong here you quickly realize you don't don't even need a full language to make a revolution with it, you just need to see what went wrong and when, and if you look that then, you see that SUN was working hard Modula-3 until it was closed down DEC-SRC, later the consequences of one thing became everything else in this terms (e.g Obliq JavaScript). If not why Obliq ?-calculus is used to try to fix JavaScript
Can you see and can you imagine where we would be if the chain of events could and would be different, I think a crisis you see coming when something went wrong, can you realize then (I don't know, someones did like the M3 old friend I always talk about), it was Java the problem (I don't think so, but ignorance and disbelief I do think, that's when things went wrong in CS, now I don't want to talk about AI in
 general, others know that better than me).
Check this for other applications of type systems:
http://www.laputan.org/pub/washington/postscript/hayes.ps

The reason you should understand is because in the time the machines were another history, anything like today's big and useless in terms of theoretical needs:
https://lists.iai.uni-bonn.de/pipermail/swi-prolog/2010/003065.html


Thanks in advance

--- El jue, 8/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 12:05

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?


is change desirable?




On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.

Thanks in advance



--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57

> Hi all:

> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand

> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly

> became truth, see:

>

> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0



>

> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the

> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his

> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to

> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.

> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of

> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for

> Java...)

> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

>

> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a

> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

>

> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp

> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this

> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901




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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep 16 05:46:37 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 04:46:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
Message-ID: <1316144797.98939.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that before but no clues been actually).
Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type system, which could be good of course, but I don't know whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual because that way we can show the model intended to be in the ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that, but still quite advanced work for the time.

More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot attention right now out there (i guess there is some prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification that I know).

Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and effects in the time being passed, after they became important (like ten years or more later just as they planed things being in current use, but as unfinished they due unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3 source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe one could ask why are there those files if they weren't used, which I can think they were but because of state of the art tools they were not released to the big public now but are there still:
http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl

Thanks in advance


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep 16 21:01:08 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:01:08 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316144797.98939.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1316199668.86873.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.
In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.

Thanks in advance


--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> Hi all:
> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> before but no clues been actually).
> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but
> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> 
> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> but still quite advanced work for the time.
> 
> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> that I know).
> 
> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> effects in the time being passed, after they became
> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> but are there still:
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Thu Sep 22 01:47:32 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 00:47:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,? by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).
6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.
Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf

I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.

Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.



In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.





Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist



> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl



>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901



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From peter.mckinna at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 02:31:35 2011
From: peter.mckinna at gmail.com (Peter McKinna)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:31:35 +1000
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse)
it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities
resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt
which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some
safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few
headaches.

Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter


On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of
> several facts.
> 1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix
> school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal
> progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
> 2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer
> descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned
> Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
> 4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
> 5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my
> personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't
> acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide
> precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model
> (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it,
> mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others
> who are before me).
> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that
> the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time
> (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the
> contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question
> is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc),
> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code
> efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it,
> finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the
> computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3
> Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant
> by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more
> depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution",
> more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was
> certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>* escribi?:
>
>
> De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23
>
> Daniel, conectate al network.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if
> folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort
> to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed
> very interested in the topic as for now.
> In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed"
> for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and
> lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is
> incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli,
> he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it
> free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the
> contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for
> example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> --- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> > Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com <http://mc/compose?to=m3devel at elegosoft.com>
> > Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> > Hi all:
> > I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> > done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> > this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> > language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> > before but no clues been actually).
> > Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> > was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> > the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> > symbol for that operator (perhaps [: or say '(:' ) but
> > Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> > more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> > that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> > system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> > whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> > http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> >
> > By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> > because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> > ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> > believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> > project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> > but still quite advanced work for the time.
> >
> > More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> > old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> > problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> > or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> > because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> > well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> > attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> > prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> > that I know).
> >
> > Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> > readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> > effects in the time being passed, after they became
> > important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> > things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> > unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> > source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> > one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> > used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> > the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> > but are there still:
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> 312-444-2124
> Skype: f3l.headhunter
> Casa: 8043901
>
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Thu Sep 22 06:04:08 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 05:04:08 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
That's good GWT, but unfortunately let to die or abandoned, this projects remembers me another in Python (maybe a good idea for Guido, just another long time M3 friend), and rewrote since then to work in Modula-3, but as a "fun" project, then it needs support, something like Dragisha's work, but oriented to Trestle, VBT, the advantage with that its the ESC technology that it have underneath it, something that honestly doesn't seem near to appear in any other framework! Again Modula-3 long way to die, others are even near not quite there

Thanks in advance

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 19:31

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse) it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few headaches.


Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter
 

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.

2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of
 Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).

6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the
 question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.

OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.

Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more
 of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf


I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.


Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS,
 that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:


De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:



Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.




In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.






Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist




> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl




>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901






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From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 06:16:23 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:16:23 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-8pQrPDoktwuEGPP-f=Lo6FO03A+x8YihSwsoLG12dfeQ@mail.gmail.com>

apparetnly, not quite left to die:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=gwt




On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> That's good GWT, but unfortunately let to die or abandoned, this projects
> remembers me another in Python (maybe a good idea for Guido, just another
> long time M3 friend), and rewrote since then to work in Modula-3, but as a
> "fun" project, then it needs support, something like Dragisha's work, but
> oriented to Trestle, VBT, the advantage with that its the ESC technology
> that it have underneath it, something that honestly doesn't seem near to
> appear in any other framework! Again Modula-3 long way to die, others are
> even near not quite there
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>* escribi?:
>
>
> De: Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>
>
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 19:31
>
>
> We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse)
> it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities
> resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt
> which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some
> safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few
> headaches.
>
> Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.
>
> As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.
>
> Regards Peter
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of
> several facts.
> 1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix
> school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal
> progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
> 2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer
> descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned
> Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
> 4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
> 5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my
> personal opinion, by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't
> acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide
> precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model
> (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it,
> mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others
> who are before me).
> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that
> the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time
> (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the
> contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question
> is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc),
> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code
> efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it,
> finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the
> computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3
> Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant
> by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more
> depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution",
> more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was
> certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> >* escribi?:
>
>
> De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> >
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23
>
> Daniel, conectate al network.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if
> folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort
> to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed
> very interested in the topic as for now.
> In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed"
> for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and
> lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is
> incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli,
> he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it
> free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the
> contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for
> example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> --- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> > Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com <http://mc/compose?to=m3devel at elegosoft.com>
> > Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> > Hi all:
> > I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> > done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> > this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> > language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> > before but no clues been actually).
> > Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> > was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> > the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> > symbol for that operator (perhaps [: or say '(:' ) but
> > Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> > more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> > that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> > system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> > whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> > http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> >
> > By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> > because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> > ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> > believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> > project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> > but still quite advanced work for the time.
> >
> > More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> > old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> > problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> > or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> > because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> > well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> > attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> > prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> > that I know).
> >
> > Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> > readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> > effects in the time being passed, after they became
> > important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> > things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> > unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> > source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> > one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> > used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> > the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> > but are there still:
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> 312-444-2124
> Skype: f3l.headhunter
> Casa: 8043901
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
312-444-2124
Skype: f3l.headhunter
Casa: 8043901
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From jay.krell at cornell.edu  Thu Sep 22 10:52:26 2011
From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:52:26 +0000
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
 formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>,
	<CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL101-W36BE8495F68E8F2ED6FF94E60C0@phx.gbl>


GWT: Yeah, I've been meaning to learn this. Looks like one of the better "reachy" client platforms.I've been super busy, and will probably remain so for the long-term. Sorry.  - Jay
 Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:31:35 +1000
From: peter.mckinna at gmail.com
To: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Subject: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being	formalized?

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse) it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few headaches.


Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter
 

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.

2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of
 Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).

6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the
 question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.

OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.

Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more
 of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf


I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.


Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS,
 that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:


De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:



Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.




In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.






Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist




> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl




>

> Thanks in advance

>



-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901





 		 	   		  
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From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 17:53:16 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:53:16 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-8S3vvdT=pG2uR7DVqjTgjj2NABh0BNkA6oden_rX7K2A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Daniel.


On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
>

this is just my personal opinion, I don't like java that much, but:

I don't think java failed at all.
many people use it.
it is available in many devices.
phones, etc.
it has industry suport and lots of documentation.
it has a big userbase
it is taught in college, so you can expect more java programmers comming.

I don't think java is going anywhere.


> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones,


*which* low end smartphones?


> Then the question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still
> (Google V8, etc),



I also don't think javascript failed either.
it also has wide adoption, ti is installed in 97% of the computers of the
world, it is many people's first contact with programming, and it has
several implementations.

I also don't think javascript is going away any time soon now.



> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run
> code efficiently in UNSAFE code,


yeah, too bad the "new" Text library doesn't even work as intended, old
programs break, and nobody gives a damn about it.




> but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that
> it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's
> still not sound in terms of network models,


by this do you mean no cross-plattform socket support?

is this supported by m3?


Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what
> I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit.


I don't think a benchmark of programming languages is credit, but rather
usebase and growth.

but this is just my opinion, others might think differently.



> By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they
> have brought us "their revolution", more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker



an m3 linker you say?
tell me more about it.

where can I find this m3 linker you speak of...
?what is the download URL?



> to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
>

may we know what this "important fact" is or will we remain in ignorance?


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Casa: 8043901
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From michael.anderson at elegosoft.com  Fri Sep 23 09:54:23 2011
From: michael.anderson at elegosoft.com (Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 09:54:23 +0200
Subject: [M3devel] [elego Server Maintenance] Friday 23.09.2011 CEST
Message-ID: <4E7C3B2F.1070100@elegosoft.com>

Hello,

On Friday, September 23 at 8:30 PM CEST, we will perform scheduled
maintenance on our servers:
Brief interruptions of service may occur.
Expected duration: 120 Min.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

- the elego Admins


-- 
Michael Anderson
IT Services&  Support

elego Software Solutions GmbH
Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25
Building 12.3 (BIG) room 227
13355 Berlin, Germany

phone +49 30 23 45 86 96      michael.anderson at elegosoft.com
fax   +49 30 23 45 86 95      http://www.elegosoft.com

Geschaeftsfuehrer: Olaf Wagner, Sitz Berlin
Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg, HRB 77719, USt-IdNr: DE163214194



From michael.anderson at elegosoft.com  Fri Sep 30 22:19:57 2011
From: michael.anderson at elegosoft.com (Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 22:19:57 +0200
Subject: [M3devel] quiet out here, everything ok?
Message-ID: <4E86246D.7070006@elegosoft.com>

No posts since last server maintenance, just checking..

apologies for the spam.

Michael

-- 
Michael Anderson
IT Services&  Support

elego Software Solutions GmbH
Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25
Building 12.3 (BIG) room 227
13355 Berlin, Germany

phone +49 30 23 45 86 96      michael.anderson at elegosoft.com
fax   +49 30 23 45 86 95      http://www.elegosoft.com

Geschaeftsfuehrer: Olaf Wagner, Sitz Berlin
Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg, HRB 77719, USt-IdNr: DE163214194



From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  2 02:07:35 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 01:07:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
Message-ID: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf


From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 18:03:28 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:03:28 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
In-Reply-To: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_--MxKwz4zA1pV=w56kDNUavQ9FuQ+=775eB9CX5y8aYOg@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel, thanks for the link.

out of curiosity, I entered to this url:

http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/

and found even more interesting stuff.


thanks, I really appreciate it!


On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf
>



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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Sun Sep  4 22:54:41 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 21:54:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_--MxKwz4zA1pV=w56kDNUavQ9FuQ+=775eB9CX5y8aYOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1315169681.37511.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
Yeah, that's good. I think the importance of the conclusion was laetr confirmed in the papers on await statement "primitive" developed for a Modula-3 Thread implementation on Pthread systems, anyways, just the same conclusion if I may say so.
In other affairs I have searched and found that the formal specification of Modula-3 was done apparently in an effort by DEC-SRC Luca and Greg and DEC-PRL staff, but after written it was proved and it never ended, it was like 30 pages long.
It could be nice to see whether we could rework it and test it against a specific language formalizations in terms of results achieved of the new mathematical frameworks based on that of mathematics constructions theory like that of Feferman, he seemed to propose a new framework to redefine mathematics on which all the normal theories fit? and applicable as a lambda calculus? as a way to include the formal description of a computer language:
http://turing.une.edu.au/~iam/Data/Papers/93ic.ps

This is perhaps the most advanced or the state of the art framework for doing that, interesting to see what works with that, see Modula-3 there could be very nice.

Thanks in advance
--- El vie, 2/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: viernes, 2 de septiembre, 2011 11:03

Daniel, thanks for the link.

out of curiosity, I entered to this url:


http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/


and found even more interesting stuff.

thanks, I really appreciate it!



On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf




-- 
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Tue Sep  6 22:57:55 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 21:57:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
Message-ID: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly became truth, see:

http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0

Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for Java...)
http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

Thanks in advance


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Tue Sep  6 23:12:14 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:12:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.
Thanks in advance

--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57
> Hi all:
> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand
> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly
> became truth, see:
> 
> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0
> 
> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the
> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his
> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to
> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of
> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for
> Java...)
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ
> 
> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a
> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?
> 
> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp
> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this
> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 


From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep  8 19:05:15 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:05:15 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-_vYWNn0namq3iT41iAsaKsOWpV671Vib99Z19+qhi0LA@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?

is change desirable?



On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's
> enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.
> Thanks in advance
>
> --- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> > Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
> jokes
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> > Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57
> > Hi all:
> > I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand
> > an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly
> > became truth, see:
> >
> >
> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0
> >
> > Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the
> > software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his
> > article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to
> > "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
> > By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of
> > unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for
> > Java...)
> > http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ
> >
> > Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a
> > Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?
> >
> > In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp
> > newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this
> > interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>



-- 
312-444-2124
Skype: f3l.headhunter
Casa: 8043901
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  9 01:13:22 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 00:13:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_-_vYWNn0namq3iT41iAsaKsOWpV671Vib99Z19+qhi0LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1315523602.46357.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I think if you admit something is wrong here you quickly realize you don't don't even need a full language to make a revolution with it, you just need to see what went wrong and when, and if you look that then, you see that SUN was working hard Modula-3 until it was closed down DEC-SRC, later the consequences of one thing became everything else in this terms (e.g Obliq JavaScript). If not why Obliq ?-calculus is used to try to fix JavaScript
Can you see and can you imagine where we would be if the chain of events could and would be different, I think a crisis you see coming when something went wrong, can you realize then (I don't know, someones did like the M3 old friend I always talk about), it was Java the problem (I don't think so, but ignorance and disbelief I do think, that's when things went wrong in CS, now I don't want to talk about AI in general, others know that better than me).
Check this for other applications of type systems:
http://www.laputan.org/pub/washington/postscript/hayes.ps

The reason you should understand is because in the time the machines were another history, anything like today's big and useless in terms of theoretical needs:
https://lists.iai.uni-bonn.de/pipermail/swi-prolog/2010/003065.html


Thanks in advance

--- El jue, 8/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 12:05

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?


is change desirable?




On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.

Thanks in advance



--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57

> Hi all:

> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand

> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly

> became truth, see:

>

> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0



>

> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the

> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his

> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to

> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.

> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of

> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for

> Java...)

> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

>

> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a

> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

>

> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp

> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this

> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901




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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  9 23:47:45 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 22:47:45 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315523602.46357.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1315604865.21232.YahooMailClassic@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

HI all:
Even you can go even earlier than that to see what was the market around 80s:
ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/misc/A2_DOCS_GENIELAMP1.pdf

Like ~84 or so, it is claimed Modula-3 was working in Mainframes and Minicomputers, the long time friend had access in a Phillips Professional visit in Netherlands to such systems, where he learned Unix of first hand, this theory would explain as in his country (COL) we didn't have much notice of this things more than in some Calculus Centers Mainframes, sometimes managed by foreign or isolated workers and later all computing directly jumped into Micros in Computer Labs, but I would like to know what happened in other LA countries, or overseas and in US, that would explain us better the theory of the "missing minis" here and "lack" of user-base.
Thanks in advance


--- El jue, 8/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "felipe valdez" <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 18:13

Hi all:
I think if you admit something is wrong here you quickly realize you don't don't even need a full language to make a revolution with it, you just need to see what went wrong and when, and if you look that then, you see that SUN was working hard Modula-3 until it was closed down DEC-SRC, later the consequences of one thing became everything else in this terms (e.g Obliq JavaScript). If not why Obliq ?-calculus is used to try to fix JavaScript
Can you see and can you imagine where we would be if the chain of events could and would be different, I think a crisis you see coming when something went wrong, can you realize then (I don't know, someones did like the M3 old friend I always talk about), it was Java the problem (I don't think so, but ignorance and disbelief I do think, that's when things went wrong in CS, now I don't want to talk about AI in
 general, others know that better than me).
Check this for other applications of type systems:
http://www.laputan.org/pub/washington/postscript/hayes.ps

The reason you should understand is because in the time the machines were another history, anything like today's big and useless in terms of theoretical needs:
https://lists.iai.uni-bonn.de/pipermail/swi-prolog/2010/003065.html


Thanks in advance

--- El jue, 8/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 12:05

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?


is change desirable?




On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.

Thanks in advance



--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57

> Hi all:

> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand

> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly

> became truth, see:

>

> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0



>

> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the

> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his

> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to

> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.

> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of

> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for

> Java...)

> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

>

> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a

> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

>

> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp

> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this

> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901




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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep 16 05:46:37 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 04:46:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
Message-ID: <1316144797.98939.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that before but no clues been actually).
Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type system, which could be good of course, but I don't know whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual because that way we can show the model intended to be in the ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that, but still quite advanced work for the time.

More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot attention right now out there (i guess there is some prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification that I know).

Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and effects in the time being passed, after they became important (like ten years or more later just as they planed things being in current use, but as unfinished they due unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3 source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe one could ask why are there those files if they weren't used, which I can think they were but because of state of the art tools they were not released to the big public now but are there still:
http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl

Thanks in advance


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep 16 21:01:08 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:01:08 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316144797.98939.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1316199668.86873.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.
In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.

Thanks in advance


--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> Hi all:
> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> before but no clues been actually).
> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but
> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> 
> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> but still quite advanced work for the time.
> 
> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> that I know).
> 
> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> effects in the time being passed, after they became
> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> but are there still:
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Thu Sep 22 01:47:32 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 00:47:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,? by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).
6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.
Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf

I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.

Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.



In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.





Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist



> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl



>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901



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From peter.mckinna at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 02:31:35 2011
From: peter.mckinna at gmail.com (Peter McKinna)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:31:35 +1000
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse)
it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities
resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt
which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some
safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few
headaches.

Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter


On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of
> several facts.
> 1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix
> school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal
> progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
> 2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer
> descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned
> Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
> 4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
> 5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my
> personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't
> acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide
> precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model
> (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it,
> mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others
> who are before me).
> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that
> the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time
> (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the
> contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question
> is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc),
> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code
> efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it,
> finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the
> computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3
> Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant
> by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more
> depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution",
> more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was
> certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>* escribi?:
>
>
> De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23
>
> Daniel, conectate al network.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if
> folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort
> to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed
> very interested in the topic as for now.
> In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed"
> for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and
> lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is
> incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli,
> he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it
> free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the
> contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for
> example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> --- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> > Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com <http://mc/compose?to=m3devel at elegosoft.com>
> > Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> > Hi all:
> > I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> > done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> > this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> > language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> > before but no clues been actually).
> > Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> > was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> > the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> > symbol for that operator (perhaps [: or say '(:' ) but
> > Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> > more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> > that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> > system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> > whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> > http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> >
> > By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> > because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> > ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> > believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> > project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> > but still quite advanced work for the time.
> >
> > More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> > old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> > problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> > or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> > because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> > well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> > attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> > prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> > that I know).
> >
> > Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> > readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> > effects in the time being passed, after they became
> > important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> > things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> > unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> > source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> > one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> > used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> > the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> > but are there still:
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> 312-444-2124
> Skype: f3l.headhunter
> Casa: 8043901
>
>
>
>
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Thu Sep 22 06:04:08 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 05:04:08 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
That's good GWT, but unfortunately let to die or abandoned, this projects remembers me another in Python (maybe a good idea for Guido, just another long time M3 friend), and rewrote since then to work in Modula-3, but as a "fun" project, then it needs support, something like Dragisha's work, but oriented to Trestle, VBT, the advantage with that its the ESC technology that it have underneath it, something that honestly doesn't seem near to appear in any other framework! Again Modula-3 long way to die, others are even near not quite there

Thanks in advance

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 19:31

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse) it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few headaches.


Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter
 

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.

2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of
 Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).

6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the
 question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.

OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.

Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more
 of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf


I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.


Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS,
 that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:


De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:



Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.




In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.






Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist




> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl




>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901






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From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 06:16:23 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:16:23 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-8pQrPDoktwuEGPP-f=Lo6FO03A+x8YihSwsoLG12dfeQ@mail.gmail.com>

apparetnly, not quite left to die:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=gwt




On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> That's good GWT, but unfortunately let to die or abandoned, this projects
> remembers me another in Python (maybe a good idea for Guido, just another
> long time M3 friend), and rewrote since then to work in Modula-3, but as a
> "fun" project, then it needs support, something like Dragisha's work, but
> oriented to Trestle, VBT, the advantage with that its the ESC technology
> that it have underneath it, something that honestly doesn't seem near to
> appear in any other framework! Again Modula-3 long way to die, others are
> even near not quite there
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>* escribi?:
>
>
> De: Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>
>
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 19:31
>
>
> We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse)
> it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities
> resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt
> which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some
> safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few
> headaches.
>
> Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.
>
> As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.
>
> Regards Peter
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of
> several facts.
> 1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix
> school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal
> progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
> 2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer
> descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned
> Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
> 4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
> 5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my
> personal opinion, by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't
> acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide
> precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model
> (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it,
> mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others
> who are before me).
> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that
> the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time
> (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the
> contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question
> is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc),
> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code
> efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it,
> finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the
> computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3
> Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant
> by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more
> depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution",
> more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was
> certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> >* escribi?:
>
>
> De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> >
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23
>
> Daniel, conectate al network.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if
> folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort
> to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed
> very interested in the topic as for now.
> In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed"
> for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and
> lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is
> incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli,
> he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it
> free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the
> contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for
> example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> --- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> > Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com <http://mc/compose?to=m3devel at elegosoft.com>
> > Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> > Hi all:
> > I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> > done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> > this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> > language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> > before but no clues been actually).
> > Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> > was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> > the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> > symbol for that operator (perhaps [: or say '(:' ) but
> > Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> > more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> > that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> > system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> > whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> > http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> >
> > By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> > because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> > ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> > believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> > project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> > but still quite advanced work for the time.
> >
> > More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> > old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> > problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> > or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> > because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> > well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> > attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> > prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> > that I know).
> >
> > Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> > readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> > effects in the time being passed, after they became
> > important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> > things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> > unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> > source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> > one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> > used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> > the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> > but are there still:
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> 312-444-2124
> Skype: f3l.headhunter
> Casa: 8043901
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
312-444-2124
Skype: f3l.headhunter
Casa: 8043901
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From jay.krell at cornell.edu  Thu Sep 22 10:52:26 2011
From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:52:26 +0000
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
 formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>,
	<CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL101-W36BE8495F68E8F2ED6FF94E60C0@phx.gbl>


GWT: Yeah, I've been meaning to learn this. Looks like one of the better "reachy" client platforms.I've been super busy, and will probably remain so for the long-term. Sorry.  - Jay
 Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:31:35 +1000
From: peter.mckinna at gmail.com
To: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Subject: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being	formalized?

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse) it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few headaches.


Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter
 

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.

2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of
 Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).

6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the
 question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.

OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.

Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more
 of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf


I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.


Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS,
 that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:


De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:



Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.




In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.






Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist




> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl




>

> Thanks in advance

>



-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901





 		 	   		  
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From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 17:53:16 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:53:16 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-8S3vvdT=pG2uR7DVqjTgjj2NABh0BNkA6oden_rX7K2A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Daniel.


On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
>

this is just my personal opinion, I don't like java that much, but:

I don't think java failed at all.
many people use it.
it is available in many devices.
phones, etc.
it has industry suport and lots of documentation.
it has a big userbase
it is taught in college, so you can expect more java programmers comming.

I don't think java is going anywhere.


> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones,


*which* low end smartphones?


> Then the question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still
> (Google V8, etc),



I also don't think javascript failed either.
it also has wide adoption, ti is installed in 97% of the computers of the
world, it is many people's first contact with programming, and it has
several implementations.

I also don't think javascript is going away any time soon now.



> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run
> code efficiently in UNSAFE code,


yeah, too bad the "new" Text library doesn't even work as intended, old
programs break, and nobody gives a damn about it.




> but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that
> it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's
> still not sound in terms of network models,


by this do you mean no cross-plattform socket support?

is this supported by m3?


Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what
> I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit.


I don't think a benchmark of programming languages is credit, but rather
usebase and growth.

but this is just my opinion, others might think differently.



> By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they
> have brought us "their revolution", more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker



an m3 linker you say?
tell me more about it.

where can I find this m3 linker you speak of...
?what is the download URL?



> to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
>

may we know what this "important fact" is or will we remain in ignorance?


-- 
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Casa: 8043901
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From michael.anderson at elegosoft.com  Fri Sep 23 09:54:23 2011
From: michael.anderson at elegosoft.com (Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 09:54:23 +0200
Subject: [M3devel] [elego Server Maintenance] Friday 23.09.2011 CEST
Message-ID: <4E7C3B2F.1070100@elegosoft.com>

Hello,

On Friday, September 23 at 8:30 PM CEST, we will perform scheduled
maintenance on our servers:
Brief interruptions of service may occur.
Expected duration: 120 Min.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

- the elego Admins


-- 
Michael Anderson
IT Services&  Support

elego Software Solutions GmbH
Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25
Building 12.3 (BIG) room 227
13355 Berlin, Germany

phone +49 30 23 45 86 96      michael.anderson at elegosoft.com
fax   +49 30 23 45 86 95      http://www.elegosoft.com

Geschaeftsfuehrer: Olaf Wagner, Sitz Berlin
Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg, HRB 77719, USt-IdNr: DE163214194



From michael.anderson at elegosoft.com  Fri Sep 30 22:19:57 2011
From: michael.anderson at elegosoft.com (Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 22:19:57 +0200
Subject: [M3devel] quiet out here, everything ok?
Message-ID: <4E86246D.7070006@elegosoft.com>

No posts since last server maintenance, just checking..

apologies for the spam.

Michael

-- 
Michael Anderson
IT Services&  Support

elego Software Solutions GmbH
Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25
Building 12.3 (BIG) room 227
13355 Berlin, Germany

phone +49 30 23 45 86 96      michael.anderson at elegosoft.com
fax   +49 30 23 45 86 95      http://www.elegosoft.com

Geschaeftsfuehrer: Olaf Wagner, Sitz Berlin
Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg, HRB 77719, USt-IdNr: DE163214194



From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  2 02:07:35 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 01:07:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
Message-ID: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf


From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 18:03:28 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:03:28 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
In-Reply-To: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <1314922055.50677.YahooMailClassic@web29716.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_--MxKwz4zA1pV=w56kDNUavQ9FuQ+=775eB9CX5y8aYOg@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel, thanks for the link.

out of curiosity, I entered to this url:

http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/

and found even more interesting stuff.


thanks, I really appreciate it!


On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf
>



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Casa: 8043901
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Sun Sep  4 22:54:41 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 21:54:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_--MxKwz4zA1pV=w56kDNUavQ9FuQ+=775eB9CX5y8aYOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1315169681.37511.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
Yeah, that's good. I think the importance of the conclusion was laetr confirmed in the papers on await statement "primitive" developed for a Modula-3 Thread implementation on Pthread systems, anyways, just the same conclusion if I may say so.
In other affairs I have searched and found that the formal specification of Modula-3 was done apparently in an effort by DEC-SRC Luca and Greg and DEC-PRL staff, but after written it was proved and it never ended, it was like 30 pages long.
It could be nice to see whether we could rework it and test it against a specific language formalizations in terms of results achieved of the new mathematical frameworks based on that of mathematics constructions theory like that of Feferman, he seemed to propose a new framework to redefine mathematics on which all the normal theories fit? and applicable as a lambda calculus? as a way to include the formal description of a computer language:
http://turing.une.edu.au/~iam/Data/Papers/93ic.ps

This is perhaps the most advanced or the state of the art framework for doing that, interesting to see what works with that, see Modula-3 there could be very nice.

Thanks in advance
--- El vie, 2/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] A Thread SMP implementation on UMAX Encore EMT
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: viernes, 2 de septiembre, 2011 11:03

Daniel, thanks for the link.

out of curiosity, I entered to this url:


http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/


and found even more interesting stuff.

thanks, I really appreciate it!



On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/420.pdf




-- 
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Tue Sep  6 22:57:55 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 21:57:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
Message-ID: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly became truth, see:

http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0

Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for Java...)
http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

Thanks in advance


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Tue Sep  6 23:12:14 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:12:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.
Thanks in advance

--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57
> Hi all:
> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand
> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly
> became truth, see:
> 
> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0
> 
> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the
> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his
> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to
> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of
> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for
> Java...)
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ
> 
> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a
> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?
> 
> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp
> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this
> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 


From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep  8 19:05:15 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:05:15 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <1315342675.75864.YahooMailClassic@web29720.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<1315343534.18581.YahooMailClassic@web29704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-_vYWNn0namq3iT41iAsaKsOWpV671Vib99Z19+qhi0LA@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?

is change desirable?



On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's
> enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.
> Thanks in advance
>
> --- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> > Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
> jokes
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> > Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57
> > Hi all:
> > I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand
> > an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly
> > became truth, see:
> >
> >
> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0
> >
> > Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the
> > software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his
> > article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to
> > "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.
> > By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of
> > unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for
> > Java...)
> > http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ
> >
> > Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a
> > Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?
> >
> > In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp
> > newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this
> > interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>



-- 
312-444-2124
Skype: f3l.headhunter
Casa: 8043901
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  9 01:13:22 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 00:13:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_-_vYWNn0namq3iT41iAsaKsOWpV671Vib99Z19+qhi0LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1315523602.46357.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I think if you admit something is wrong here you quickly realize you don't don't even need a full language to make a revolution with it, you just need to see what went wrong and when, and if you look that then, you see that SUN was working hard Modula-3 until it was closed down DEC-SRC, later the consequences of one thing became everything else in this terms (e.g Obliq JavaScript). If not why Obliq ?-calculus is used to try to fix JavaScript
Can you see and can you imagine where we would be if the chain of events could and would be different, I think a crisis you see coming when something went wrong, can you realize then (I don't know, someones did like the M3 old friend I always talk about), it was Java the problem (I don't think so, but ignorance and disbelief I do think, that's when things went wrong in CS, now I don't want to talk about AI in general, others know that better than me).
Check this for other applications of type systems:
http://www.laputan.org/pub/washington/postscript/hayes.ps

The reason you should understand is because in the time the machines were another history, anything like today's big and useless in terms of theoretical needs:
https://lists.iai.uni-bonn.de/pipermail/swi-prolog/2010/003065.html


Thanks in advance

--- El jue, 8/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 12:05

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?


is change desirable?




On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.

Thanks in advance



--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57

> Hi all:

> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand

> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly

> became truth, see:

>

> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0



>

> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the

> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his

> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to

> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.

> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of

> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for

> Java...)

> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

>

> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a

> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

>

> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp

> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this

> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901




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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep  9 23:47:45 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 22:47:45 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS
	jokes
In-Reply-To: <1315523602.46357.YahooMailClassic@web29705.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1315604865.21232.YahooMailClassic@web29714.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

HI all:
Even you can go even earlier than that to see what was the market around 80s:
ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/misc/A2_DOCS_GENIELAMP1.pdf

Like ~84 or so, it is claimed Modula-3 was working in Mainframes and Minicomputers, the long time friend had access in a Phillips Professional visit in Netherlands to such systems, where he learned Unix of first hand, this theory would explain as in his country (COL) we didn't have much notice of this things more than in some Calculus Centers Mainframes, sometimes managed by foreign or isolated workers and later all computing directly jumped into Micros in Computer Labs, but I would like to know what happened in other LA countries, or overseas and in US, that would explain us better the theory of the "missing minis" here and "lack" of user-base.
Thanks in advance


--- El jue, 8/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "felipe valdez" <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 18:13

Hi all:
I think if you admit something is wrong here you quickly realize you don't don't even need a full language to make a revolution with it, you just need to see what went wrong and when, and if you look that then, you see that SUN was working hard Modula-3 until it was closed down DEC-SRC, later the consequences of one thing became everything else in this terms (e.g Obliq JavaScript). If not why Obliq ?-calculus is used to try to fix JavaScript
Can you see and can you imagine where we would be if the chain of events could and would be different, I think a crisis you see coming when something went wrong, can you realize then (I don't know, someones did like the M3 old friend I always talk about), it was Java the problem (I don't think so, but ignorance and disbelief I do think, that's when things went wrong in CS, now I don't want to talk about AI in
 general, others know that better than me).
Check this for other applications of type systems:
http://www.laputan.org/pub/washington/postscript/hayes.ps

The reason you should understand is because in the time the machines were another history, anything like today's big and useless in terms of theoretical needs:
https://lists.iai.uni-bonn.de/pipermail/swi-prolog/2010/003065.html


Thanks in advance

--- El jue, 8/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
CC: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: jueves, 8 de septiembre, 2011 12:05

Daniel, does high reputation and low userbase imply academic-only use?

is this something desirable?


is change desirable?




On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

Again just to say, Modula-3 reputation must be somewhere higher, it's enough for us but for others as well high if I may say so.

Thanks in advance



--- El mar, 6/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] The so called "The Emerging JavaScript Revolution" CS jokes

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: martes, 6 de septiembre, 2011 15:57

> Hi all:

> I can't criticize just if of my own criteria I can't stand

> an affirmation, but sometimes people make jokes that sadly

> became truth, see:

>

> http://links.techwebnewsletters.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzcwMDk2MjMS1&r=MjIxNTU4ODA2MQS2&j=MTExMzQzNzMxS0&mt=1&rt=0



>

> Well, if we are talking revolution, we can't just omit the

> software crisis, I don't know Rodney what's about his

> article, but just if matters to them, the idea is trying to

> "safe" JavaScript is based on a Modula-3 based program.

> By the way I found how we can avoid the sources of

> unsoundness in it (same source for ESC technology also for

> Java...)

> http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLcLAAAAEBAJ

>

> Perhaps we could boost this JavaScript revolution with a

> Modula-3 based proving engine, don't you think?

>

> In other affairs, if one of you have any interest of comp

> newsgroups, we could make some sort of subgroup for this

> interests, so we don't botter unnecessarily here?

>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901




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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep 16 05:46:37 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 04:46:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
Message-ID: <1316144797.98939.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that before but no clues been actually).
Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type system, which could be good of course, but I don't know whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual because that way we can show the model intended to be in the ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that, but still quite advanced work for the time.

More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot attention right now out there (i guess there is some prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification that I know).

Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and effects in the time being passed, after they became important (like ten years or more later just as they planed things being in current use, but as unfinished they due unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3 source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe one could ask why are there those files if they weren't used, which I can think they were but because of state of the art tools they were not released to the big public now but are there still:
http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl

Thanks in advance


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Fri Sep 16 21:01:08 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:01:08 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316144797.98939.YahooMailClassic@web29719.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1316199668.86873.YahooMailClassic@web29706.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.
In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.

Thanks in advance


--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:

> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> Hi all:
> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> before but no clues been actually).
> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but
> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> 
> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> but still quite advanced work for the time.
> 
> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> that I know).
> 
> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> effects in the time being passed, after they became
> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> but are there still:
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 


From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Thu Sep 22 01:47:32 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 00:47:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,? by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).
6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.
Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf

I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.

Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.



In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.





Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist



> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl



>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901



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From peter.mckinna at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 02:31:35 2011
From: peter.mckinna at gmail.com (Peter McKinna)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:31:35 +1000
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse)
it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities
resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt
which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some
safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few
headaches.

Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter


On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of
> several facts.
> 1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix
> school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal
> progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
> 2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer
> descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned
> Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
> 4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
> 5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my
> personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't
> acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide
> precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model
> (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it,
> mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others
> who are before me).
> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that
> the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time
> (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the
> contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question
> is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc),
> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code
> efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it,
> finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the
> computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3
> Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant
> by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more
> depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution",
> more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was
> certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>* escribi?:
>
>
> De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23
>
> Daniel, conectate al network.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if
> folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort
> to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed
> very interested in the topic as for now.
> In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed"
> for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and
> lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is
> incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli,
> he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it
> free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the
> contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for
> example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> --- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> > Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com <http://mc/compose?to=m3devel at elegosoft.com>
> > Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> > Hi all:
> > I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> > done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> > this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> > language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> > before but no clues been actually).
> > Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> > was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> > the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> > symbol for that operator (perhaps [: or say '(:' ) but
> > Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> > more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> > that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> > system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> > whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> > http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> >
> > By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> > because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> > ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> > believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> > project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> > but still quite advanced work for the time.
> >
> > More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> > old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> > problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> > or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> > because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> > well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> > attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> > prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> > that I know).
> >
> > Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> > readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> > effects in the time being passed, after they became
> > important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> > things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> > unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> > source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> > one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> > used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> > the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> > but are there still:
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> 312-444-2124
> Skype: f3l.headhunter
> Casa: 8043901
>
>
>
>
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From dabenavidesd at yahoo.es  Thu Sep 22 06:04:08 2011
From: dabenavidesd at yahoo.es (Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 05:04:08 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi all:
That's good GWT, but unfortunately let to die or abandoned, this projects remembers me another in Python (maybe a good idea for Guido, just another long time M3 friend), and rewrote since then to work in Modula-3, but as a "fun" project, then it needs support, something like Dragisha's work, but oriented to Trestle, VBT, the advantage with that its the ESC technology that it have underneath it, something that honestly doesn't seem near to appear in any other framework! Again Modula-3 long way to die, others are even near not quite there

Thanks in advance

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com> escribi?:

De: Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 19:31

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse) it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few headaches.


Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter
 

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.

2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of
 Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).

6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the
 question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.

OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.

Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more
 of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf


I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.


Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS,
 that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:


De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:



Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.




In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.






Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist




> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl




>

> Thanks in advance

>




-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901






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From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 06:16:23 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:16:23 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316664248.8103.YahooMailClassic@web29715.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-8pQrPDoktwuEGPP-f=Lo6FO03A+x8YihSwsoLG12dfeQ@mail.gmail.com>

apparetnly, not quite left to die:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=gwt




On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> That's good GWT, but unfortunately let to die or abandoned, this projects
> remembers me another in Python (maybe a good idea for Guido, just another
> long time M3 friend), and rewrote since then to work in Modula-3, but as a
> "fun" project, then it needs support, something like Dragisha's work, but
> oriented to Trestle, VBT, the advantage with that its the ESC technology
> that it have underneath it, something that honestly doesn't seem near to
> appear in any other framework! Again Modula-3 long way to die, others are
> even near not quite there
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>* escribi?:
>
>
> De: Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>
>
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 19:31
>
>
> We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse)
> it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities
> resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt
> which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some
> safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few
> headaches.
>
> Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.
>
> As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.
>
> Regards Peter
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of
> several facts.
> 1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix
> school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal
> progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
> 2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer
> descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned
> Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
> 4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
> 5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my
> personal opinion, by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't
> acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide
> precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model
> (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it,
> mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others
> who are before me).
> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that
> the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time
> (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the
> contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question
> is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc),
> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code
> efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it,
> finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the
> computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3
> Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant
> by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more
> depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution",
> more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was
> certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
> --- El *mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> >* escribi?:
>
>
> De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=felipevaldez at gmail.com>
> >
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23
>
> Daniel, conectate al network.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>> wrote:
>
> Hi all:
> If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if
> folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort
> to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed
> very interested in the topic as for now.
> In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed"
> for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and
> lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is
> incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli,
> he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it
> free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the
> contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for
> example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> --- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>>
> escribi?:
>
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> >
> > Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com <http://mc/compose?to=m3devel at elegosoft.com>
> > Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> > Hi all:
> > I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was
> > done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> > this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> > language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> > before but no clues been actually).
> > Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> > was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> > the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> > symbol for that operator (perhaps [: or say '(:' ) but
> > Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> > more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> > that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> > system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> > whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> > http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> >
> > By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> > because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> > ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> > believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> > project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> > but still quite advanced work for the time.
> >
> > More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> > old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> > problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> > or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> > because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> > well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> > attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> > prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> > that I know).
> >
> > Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> > readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> > effects in the time being passed, after they became
> > important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> > things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> > unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> > source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> > one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> > used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> > the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> > but are there still:
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> 312-444-2124
> Skype: f3l.headhunter
> Casa: 8043901
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
312-444-2124
Skype: f3l.headhunter
Casa: 8043901
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From jay.krell at cornell.edu  Thu Sep 22 10:52:26 2011
From: jay.krell at cornell.edu (Jay K)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:52:26 +0000
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
 formalized?
In-Reply-To: <CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>,
	<CAEy6uxpuAH+N7sTVy+zF9Q2jHd=DZuo1bVOcobAQ3ttTzA901Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL101-W36BE8495F68E8F2ED6FF94E60C0@phx.gbl>


GWT: Yeah, I've been meaning to learn this. Looks like one of the better "reachy" client platforms.I've been super busy, and will probably remain so for the long-term. Sorry.  - Jay
 Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:31:35 +1000
From: peter.mckinna at gmail.com
To: m3devel at elegosoft.com
Subject: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being	formalized?

We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse) it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few headaches.


Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.

As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.

Regards Peter
 

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:


Hi all:
I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone said, This is it!
It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of several facts.
1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.

2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of
 Internet mainly due safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to be in everywhere if you read its books)
5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my personal opinion,  by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it, mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others who are before me).

6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the
 question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc), well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.

OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution", more way down.

Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more
 of SPIN, specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly 
special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its application (that is linker-loader):
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf


I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker, well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But could be certainly a good work to do later.


Thanks in advance

PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS,
 that motivated by the above url of this description

--- El mi?, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com> escribi?:


De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?
Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

Fecha: mi?rcoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23

Daniel, conectate al network.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:



Hi all:

If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed very interested in the topic as for now.




In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed" for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli, he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.






Thanks in advance





--- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribi?:



> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>

> Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com

> Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46

> Hi all:

> I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM? system was

> done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has

> this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current

> language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that

> before but no clues been actually).

> Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC

> was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying

> the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different

> symbol for that operator (perhaps [:  or say '(:' ) but

> Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so

> more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say

> that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type

> system, which could be good of course, but I don't know

> whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):

> http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps

>

> By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual

> because that way we can show the model intended to be in the

> ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I

> believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch

> project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,

> but still quite advanced work for the time.

>

> More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this

> old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg

> problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable

> or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are

> because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as

> well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot

> attention right now out there (i guess there is some

> prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification

> that I know).

>

> Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the

> readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and

> effects in the time being passed, after they became

> important (like ten years or more later just as they planed

> things being in current use, but as unfinished they due

> unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3

> source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe

> one could ask why are there those files if they weren't

> used, which I can think they were but because of state of

> the art tools they were not released to the big public now

> but are there still:

> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist




> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl




>

> Thanks in advance

>



-- 
312-444-2124Skype: f3l.headhunterCasa: 8043901





 		 	   		  
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From felipevaldez at gmail.com  Thu Sep 22 17:53:16 2011
From: felipevaldez at gmail.com (felipe valdez)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:53:16 -0500
Subject: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
	formalized?
In-Reply-To: <1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGi-_--4Pm37Hnhz8LDhr7gMS_Gj3fhx1K5s=iF9sPG+mibHGQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1316648852.57522.YahooMailClassic@web29709.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGi-_-8S3vvdT=pG2uR7DVqjTgjj2NABh0BNkA6oden_rX7K2A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Daniel.


On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)

4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
>

this is just my personal opinion, I don't like java that much, but:

I don't think java failed at all.
many people use it.
it is available in many devices.
phones, etc.
it has industry suport and lots of documentation.
it has a big userbase
it is taught in college, so you can expect more java programmers comming.

I don't think java is going anywhere.


> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones,


*which* low end smartphones?


> Then the question is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still
> (Google V8, etc),



I also don't think javascript failed either.
it also has wide adoption, ti is installed in 97% of the computers of the
world, it is many people's first contact with programming, and it has
several implementations.

I also don't think javascript is going away any time soon now.



> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run
> code efficiently in UNSAFE code,


yeah, too bad the "new" Text library doesn't even work as intended, old
programs break, and nobody gives a damn about it.




> but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it, finally acknowledge that
> it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the computation model it's
> still not sound in terms of network models,


by this do you mean no cross-plattform socket support?

is this supported by m3?


Modula-3 Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what
> I meant by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit.


I don't think a benchmark of programming languages is credit, but rather
usebase and growth.

but this is just my opinion, others might think differently.



> By denying it, they will cave more depth than of what they are now as they
> have brought us "their revolution", more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker



an m3 linker you say?
tell me more about it.

where can I find this m3 linker you speak of...
?what is the download URL?



> to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
>
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
>
>

may we know what this "important fact" is or will we remain in ignorance?


-- 
312-444-2124
Skype: f3l.headhunter
Casa: 8043901
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From michael.anderson at elegosoft.com  Fri Sep 23 09:54:23 2011
From: michael.anderson at elegosoft.com (Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 09:54:23 +0200
Subject: [M3devel] [elego Server Maintenance] Friday 23.09.2011 CEST
Message-ID: <4E7C3B2F.1070100@elegosoft.com>

Hello,

On Friday, September 23 at 8:30 PM CEST, we will perform scheduled
maintenance on our servers:
Brief interruptions of service may occur.
Expected duration: 120 Min.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

- the elego Admins


-- 
Michael Anderson
IT Services&  Support

elego Software Solutions GmbH
Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25
Building 12.3 (BIG) room 227
13355 Berlin, Germany

phone +49 30 23 45 86 96      michael.anderson at elegosoft.com
fax   +49 30 23 45 86 95      http://www.elegosoft.com

Geschaeftsfuehrer: Olaf Wagner, Sitz Berlin
Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg, HRB 77719, USt-IdNr: DE163214194



From michael.anderson at elegosoft.com  Fri Sep 30 22:19:57 2011
From: michael.anderson at elegosoft.com (Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 22:19:57 +0200
Subject: [M3devel] quiet out here, everything ok?
Message-ID: <4E86246D.7070006@elegosoft.com>

No posts since last server maintenance, just checking..

apologies for the spam.

Michael

-- 
Michael Anderson
IT Services&  Support

elego Software Solutions GmbH
Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25
Building 12.3 (BIG) room 227
13355 Berlin, Germany

phone +49 30 23 45 86 96      michael.anderson at elegosoft.com
fax   +49 30 23 45 86 95      http://www.elegosoft.com

Geschaeftsfuehrer: Olaf Wagner, Sitz Berlin
Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg, HRB 77719, USt-IdNr: DE163214194