[M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being formalized?

felipe valdez felipevaldez at gmail.com
Thu Sep 22 06:16:23 CEST 2011

apparetnly, not quite left to die:


On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hi all:
> That's good GWT, but unfortunately let to die or abandoned, this projects
> remembers me another in Python (maybe a good idea for Guido, just another
> long time M3 friend), and rewrote since then to work in Modula-3, but as a
> "fun" project, then it needs support, something like Dragisha's work, but
> oriented to Trestle, VBT, the advantage with that its the ESC technology
> that it have underneath it, something that honestly doesn't seem near to
> appear in any other framework! Again Modula-3 long way to die, others are
> even near not quite there
> Thanks in advance
> --- El *mié, 21/9/11, Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>* escribió:
> De: Peter McKinna <peter.mckinna at gmail.com>
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com
> Fecha: miércoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 19:31
> We use GWT for browser based apps. You write the code in Java (in Eclipse)
> it gets compiled to Javascript with all the cross browser incompatibilities
> resolved (hopefully). As well if you want some nice widgets use SmartGwt
> which is a Java layer on some cool Javascript libraries. So you can get some
> safety from the Java and the code runs in the client. Removes a few
> headaches.
> Better if it was M3 but its not a perfect world.
> As Daniel says where is Jay? This forum is very quiet without him.
> Regards Peter
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd@yahoo.es>> wrote:
> Hi all:
> I think this is the question, I really don't like to quote, but as someone
> said, This is it!
> It turns out that the history of Internet was marked by SPIN OS, because of
> several facts.
> 1. As the long time M3 friend, the birth of Modula-3 was from the Unix
> school (somehow ironical because of its C dependence), but then the Pascal
> progeny was that of a P-Machine with its almost OS.
> 2. Unix birth brought (as its Mach and SPIN representative newer
> descendants, among others SPINE, etc) had TCP technology (envisioned
> Internet as the main communication avenue, e.g SPINE, SPIN http server)
> 3. Java was planed to be the language of the Era (and it certainly was at
> the moment of its birth, objects, threads, exceptions, all from old school
> and newer ones like Modula-3, and nearer of NetObj)
> 4. Java sadly failed unfortunately due big birth of Internet mainly due
> safety* but mainly by performance, let's be honest here (JVM were planeed to
> be in everywhere if you read its books)
> 5. JavaScript was born or brought to life, unfortunately, and this is my
> personal opinion, by not acknowledging the its roots, that's it, it didn't
> acknowledge the real influences but just by informal comments which hide
> precisely, one of the most important questions: the computation Model
> (Modula-3, later I explain why), and secondly the characteristics of it,
> mainly safety (I don't mean explicit typing I left this discussion to others
> who are before me).
> 6. JavaScript code is becoming critical when it comes to smart TVs, low-end
> phones, etc, as they are appearing in the market, but let's not forget that
> the requirements where more or less the same for Java Applets at its time
> (so this is why JavaScript needs to be serious and when the
> contra-revolution comes) as it was before its appearing. Then the question
> is why it failed, and if so, why do they can fix it still (Google V8, etc),
> well, the idea is perhaps the one more or less of Modula-3, you can run code
> efficiently in UNSAFE code, but most inner parts are safe, then, this is it,
> finally acknowledge that it's the Modula-3 security model, and secondly the
> computation model it's still not sound in terms of network models, Modula-3
> Obliq style is more oriented to LANs, but fortunately this is what I meant
> by Cloud VM that has fixed this two models.
> OK, if I am correct then this what happened with Modula-3, Java, JavaScript
> and that if completely finally acknowledge it (Obliq deserves and its
> precursors of course, Modula-3, mainly, but let's say Java in one way or
> another) of the most important credit. By denying it, they will cave more
> depth than of what they are now as they have brought us "their revolution",
> more way down.
> Now, it was acknowledge the importance and recently more and more of SPIN,
> specially its dynamic linker to save the Modularity of JVM, but it was
> certainly
> special to correct their lack of security, and use its fixed loader as its
> application (that is linker-loader):
> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/slk/papers/slk.pdf
> I would like to see a port and working of m3loader just to see where did
> they arrive to in DEC-SRC days, Jay are you still there? :)
> I can bring it compile it but not too much after that (I'm a big fan of
> compilers, but missing interfaces and Modules problems is harder than to fix
> simple bugs). Jay is pretty fairly the guy at the dark corners of MS linkers
> and loaders, interesting as some one suggested recently to see it in a
> platform independent "dynamic-network-aware linker caller", uhm m3linker,
> well that's harder work than just to recompile in its native platform. But
> could be certainly a good work to do later.
> Thanks in advance
> PS: There is a important fact about SPIN OS, that motivated by the above
> url of this description
> --- El *mié, 21/9/11, felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=felipevaldez@gmail.com>
> >* escribió:
> De: felipe valdez <felipevaldez at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=felipevaldez@gmail.com>
> >
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> Para: "Daniel Alejandro Benavides D." <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd@yahoo.es>
> >
> Fecha: miércoles, 21 de septiembre, 2011 15:23
> Daniel, conectate al network.
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <
> dabenavidesd at yahoo.es <http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd@yahoo.es>> wrote:
> Hi all:
> If it isn't it must be worked out I offer myself to do that but anyway, if
> folks don't dare to comment on that ... but will do my best possible effort
> to have such thing in a proposal fashion for the public, as nobody seemed
> very interested in the topic as for now.
> In other things I want to talk also given that Obliq has the best "testbed"
> for the current times, an own calculus, and own Cloud VM implementation, and
> lots of research in ambients, languages and platforms, just to believe is
> incredible If I may say so. I spoke recently by email with DR Luca Cardelli,
> he told me it could be good for the language to have some rework and make it
> free to see what happens next, I believe that we could really make the
> contra-revolution of this times, with Modula-3 and its derivatives as for
> example Obliq. Or better to say, and re-re-evolution, that is the next one.
> Thanks in advance
> --- El jue, 15/9/11, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd@yahoo.es>>
> escribió:
> > De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es<http://mc/compose?to=dabenavidesd@yahoo.es>
> >
> > Asunto: [M3devel] Is CM3 Modula-3 dynamic binding done at RT being
> formalized?
> > Para: m3devel at elegosoft.com <http://mc/compose?to=m3devel@elegosoft.com>
> > Fecha: jueves, 15 de septiembre, 2011 22:46
> > Hi all:
> > I have read the addition to the Modula-3 CM· system was
> > done by effect of CM-JVM dynamic linking and loading, has
> > this facility being formalized (i.e is part of the current
> > language definition, why it hasn't someone has asked that
> > before but no clues been actually).
> > Somehow one of the open problems on Larch project at DEC
> > was the creation of sub-sorting facility (<:) simplifying
> > the Modula-3 type system, I would some kind of different
> > symbol for that operator (perhaps [: or say '(:' ) but
> > Horning proposes to deal with it syntactically with it so
> > more research would be needed (I don't know why he can say
> > that, I guess is because is supposed to simplify the type
> > system, which could be good of course, but I don't know
> > whether '(:' could mess the syntax of the LM3 language ):
> > http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/larch/pub/wadt11-slides.ps
> >
> > By the way we should recover the LM3 semantics manual
> > because that way we can show the model intended to be in the
> > ESC way and railroad diagrams, etc, kind of more formal, I
> > believe they did quite an amount of work on the Larch
> > project but as ESC began got somehow abandoned after that,
> > but still quite advanced work for the time.
> >
> > More interestingly there are some efforts to revive this
> > old dilemma of Computation and deduction chicken and egg
> > problem, that specification languages are Turing-computable
> > or not, etc. I believe they are in DEC cases they are
> > because of they experience with DECspec, etc and others as
> > well are the SPEC language by Lampson, which has a lot
> > attention right now out there (i guess there is some
> > prototype tools for handling it but nothing of verification
> > that I know).
> >
> > Also this way we can offer some more knowledge to the
> > readers interested in DEC's initiatives and its roots and
> > effects in the time being passed, after they became
> > important (like ten years or more later just as they planed
> > things being in current use, but as unfinished they due
> > unsatisfiability discarded before its time). Anyway CM3
> > source still has still lm3 interface code files I believe
> > one could ask why are there those files if they weren't
> > used, which I can think they were but because of state of
> > the art tools they were not released to the big public now
> > but are there still:
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/larch/#dirlist
> >
> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/cm3/m3-libs/m3core/src/thread/Common/set.lsl
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> --
> 312-444-2124
> Skype: f3l.headhunter
> Casa: 8043901

Skype: f3l.headhunter
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