[M3devel] SVN migration, also promotion

[Dragiša Durić]

On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 13:44 +0100, Olaf Wagner wrote:
> Quoting Dragiša Durić <dragisha at m3w.org>:
...
> > Similiar communities are spoiling their "followers", but we Modula-3
> > people are "it's all out there, you are not getting it? Pity!".
> 
> I think you don't really realize how much effort has been put into
> getting everything into its current state and keeping the quality
> standard as best as possible. This is because many people have
> contributed their time and work and other resources. Elego, for
> example, has contributed its machines, network bandwidth, administration
> and support, and quite a few months of student's work; I myself have
> contributed months of time to get the 5th release of CM3 running first
> on one and then on more and more platforms since we got the sources
> from Critical Mass.

  If criticism produces "you don't realize how much we work" then it
would be best for me to stop writing about this and keep it quiet and
happy?

> 
> In recent months I have been working on improving both the test
> infrastructure and documentation/presentation of CM3, while trying to
> support all other contributors as best as possible and coordinating
> their achievements.

  Also, if you don't think I follow M3 closely, then I don't know what
to say. Try google. Or check your mailboxes. :)

> I don't think there are a `plethora of sources'; as a matter of fact,
> all resources are available via www.opencm3.net and being integrated
> more and more. 

  Look at any good trac using project, lighttpd for example, and you'll
see much less information organized in much better way. You'll see
trivial projects, compared to CM3, and see good flow and easy ways to
jump in, find info and support, and what not.

  I am Modula-2 programmer since 1987, Pascal since 1982. Sold my first
Pascal software in 1984. Discovered Modula-3 in 1990, and tried to use
it for what I live from for years. My company started selling Modula-3
software 10yrs ago. I know very well who's and what's and where's of
Modula-3. But try to imagine someone coming outside, and refer him to
hard science which makes at least half of Modula-3 docs.

> There is the web presentation, the CVS repository with
> anonymous and ssh access, CVSWeb, mailing lists,

  Mailing lists archive was one of thing that trigerred me. I am very
glad we have them, but that archive look, feel and usability is as
outdated as many other things we have. I am glad we have all of them,
and I am thankful to Elego and Mr. Hosking and others for preserving
Modula-3's life, but many of our resources are like that kid whose face
only mother can think beautiful.

...

> I don't think it will be furthered by switching from CVS to SVN
> or any other tool change.

  Ok.

> I'm a bit tired of these discussions, as I don't think they help
> the project on. What is needed is concrete work on documentation
> and infrastructure. I'd also doubt that switching to SVN would
> bring about a group of motivated and competent contributors
> who have just been waiting for the CM3 folks to change their
> version control to participate in the development of Modula-3.

  I can understand you, as someone from SCM company, are a bit touchy on
these topics. What I say, as a longtime OSS user/follower and sometimes
contributor, is - Modula-3 train is pretty hard one to jump on. 

> If there really is the wish within the community to switch from
> CVS to SVN, then those interested should build a team, investigate
> the impacts and propose a migration plan. Elego and me for one
> would need new server setup, the actual repository migration (which
> should preserve as much information as possible), setup of repository
> replication to two machines, integration of SVN into the regression
> test framework, setup of SVN clients, update / rewrite of all the
> repository access information and CM guidelines, and a migration
> strategy for all the existing HTTP links in search engines etc.
> 
> If I should make an estimation for this project in a commercial
> environment, I'd say it will take 3-6 months and cost a client
> between 40,000 and 80,000 Euros (that's currently 60,000 to 120,000$).

  Next time your company gets such job, outsource it to mine - I'll do
it for half that money and 1/6 the time :).

> I'd rather invest these efforts for other goals. If other CM3 users
> think it is worthwhile to do, they should just do it; after all, this
> is an open source project. No tool will be able to bring about more
> organized development of CM3 simply by its use though. It needs
> willing and competent humans to do this.

  It also can be done other way. As SVN from CVS can be done
incrementally, we can make a sync-only SVN repo so locally installed
trac can browse/link CM3's SVN. Voila.

  If I produced this trick in commercial environment, I would be hard
pressed to charge it 5,000-10,000 EUR. Too bad nobody'll pay :).

> I should have used the time it took me to write this mail for working
> on CM3 code and infrastructure.

  I am sorry you are receiving this so hard. I think it would be really
good idea to look a bit what other OSS people are doing and use some
fresh ideas.
  
> 
> Olaf

  dd

-- 
Dragiša Durić <dragisha at m3w.org>