[M3devel] bad web pages

[Darko Volaric]

I don't think the visiual presentation is the issue, but the  
oganisation could be improved. I think visiually it should look like  
the M3 Language Definition and the like. I'll have a go at re- 
organising it.


On 27/07/2009, at 10:49 PM, Olaf Wagner wrote:

> No offense taken. Any volunteers for working on improving the
> web presentation are welcome.
>
> The official domains are opencm3.net and modula3.org.
> Everything else should be left to Elego.
>
> I'd really appreciate if someone with the appropriate knowledge
> in design would step in. I don't think anybody is interested in
> doing that, though. I'd say that 99% of what is there has been
> structured and presented by me in the simplest way just to publish
> the available information at all.
>
> Some people have made concrete change suggestions, and I'm usually
> trying to follow and integrate them.
>
> Let's not try a complete overhaul for this release. Just fix the most
> blatant errors and no-gos. Everything else will take months.
>
> The releng pages have been open for discussion here for several weeks
> now; they are still not public (i.e. not linked to the other pages)
> of opencm3.net.
>
> Suggestions may also simply be checked in (everything is in the repo),
> preferrably on a branch, so that everyone can have a look at it.
> It's also much more effective. I haven't got the time to process
> half a dozen of new and probably conflicting suggestions.
>
> What's not open for discussion in my eyes any more is the structure
> of the release archives. We'll just use what is described there,
> or it will take months till we get anywhere. It will also be the
> last time that I coordinate a CM3 release. Everyone around me is
> already complaining :-(
>
> Olaf
>
> Quoting Jay K <jay.krell at cornell.edu>:
>
>> [
>> sorry if this too rude.
>> I've been avoiding saying anything because I haven't done anything   
>> to fix it and because my complaints are a little vague. But I am   
>> sure there is something significant here. When something bugs I   
>> often wait and see if it stops bugging me, maybe I overreact   
>> initially. But this has continued to bug me.
>> ]
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry, but our web pages are not very good.
>> Too much information, too many details presented too early, hard  
>> to  see the little a new person needs.
>>
>>
>> I don't have the patience right now to go into detail, but starting  
>> here:
>>
>>
>> http://www.opencm3.net/releng/
>>
>>
>> Much too much stuff.
>>
>>
>> Beginners need to quickly get to a download, and quickly have  
>> hello  world working, and then a link to the language and library   
>> documentation.
>>
>>
>> Telling them about packages early is not useful.
>> Having so many options as to what to download is not useful.
>>  I admit even my min vs. std separation is not great.
>>  It is embarassing either way -- either you are a huge download or   
>> you have pitiful little functionality. Though libm3 is not exactly   
>> pitiful I gather.
>>
>>
>> They don't care much about quake.
>> Just give one or two quick tutorial examples:
>>  - here is how you build a program from multiple source files
>>  - optionally here is how you build a library (obviously this   
>> information must be provided, but not super early)
>>
>>
>> My other complaint is that I go here:
>>
>>
>> http://modula3.elegosoft.com/
>>
>>
>> and there is a link "WWW service for CM3 and PM3"
>>
>> Huh? WWW Service? Aren't I already there?
>> Perhaps I just pick a bad starting point?
>>
>>
>> Is the distinction Modula-3 the language vs. the two distributions   
>> CM3 and PM3?
>> Maybe we should ignore PM3 and equate Modula-3 with CM3, and  
>> somehow  merge this stuff?
>>
>>
>> The package download service? Does anyone use it?
>>
>>
>> The problem, the reason I don't rewrite stuff and am just a lazy   
>> complainer, is that in total there's a bunch of stuff in there.  
>> The  way it is laid out is bad. It used to take me a while to find  
>> stuff.
>>
>>
>> I can't be very concrete now..maybe the organization has  
>> changed..I  thought it was the stuff you have to scroll to the  
>> bottom for, but I  don't use that anymore.
>>
>>
>> One concrete thing is that  http://modula3.elegosoft.com/cm3/about-cm3.html#if-changes 
>>  doesn't  need to be so
>> visible, it's spot could be used for something of more general use.
>> I realize that it was more valuable when 5.1 was new, and then its   
>> value degraded gradually.
>> It depends how much there is out there that works with 3.x?4.x?PM3   
>> and doesn't work with CM3?
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps a very big part of the answer here is deb packages?
>> - add such and such line to whatever file
>> - apt-get modula3-min or modula3-all, or whatever you want in- 
>> between?
>> - apt-whatever -list modula3-*?
>>
>>
>> I guess we'd have to call them cm3 not modula3.
>>
>>
>> - Jay
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Olaf Wagner -- elego Software Solutions GmbH
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