[M3devel] SVN migration, also promotion

[Jay]

I should just stay out of this....
 
 > widely adoptable on many platforms
 
"As someone who uses Win32.." There appear to be a few other contenders. Monotone mostly. Maybe git.
SVN certainly seems to be the all around popularity leader.
Perforce is excellent and I think free (beer) in this context.
Gaining in popularity, but not open source.
 
 
I can't claim to know half of what Olaf knows, but I did do a fair amount of research, with unusual goals.
I wanted source control just for myself.
I don't need branching.
I want changesets. cvs fails.
I don't want to host anything myself.
  None of my machines are always on. They are all laptops.
I want to access the content from friend's place.
I was willing to spend money (and am spending some).
A Windows-only solution would have been ok, though perhaps not preferred.
I'd like to be able to see diffs in my current workspace without going to the network.
Ability to see history without the network is nice but not crucial.
 
 
The only hosting I could find was for CVS and SVN. This was critical.
"Code Co-Op" is a Windows-only system that is cheap, "distributed", has an initially-crazy seeming transport that actually is a good idea and works (email, setting up a GMail account for each node), does a good job in the GUI of walking you through the workflow. I just had a few complaints about how it worked, the cost ($150 per node I think), and Windows-only. It has the same problem as SVN as not knowing what changes have been picked up where, and you create that temporary branch situation just by editing a file on two machines.
 
 
I ended up with SVN hosting for under $10/month.
GUI and command line. Available everywhere. Change sets.
Not distributed, but ok.
 
 
>From what I read, SVN does not do branching correctly.
In multiple ways.
First, they don't remember what changes have been merged to what branches.
It is up to people to know. That is horribly broken. Last I checked it was going to be fixed soon, at least in the ui.
Second, it seems they have just mainline and branches off it.
They don't seem to really get branching like Perforce. In Perforce, the branching structure is totally hierarchical, and you don't HAVE to merge anything to anything, and a KEY feature is that it keeps track of what has been integrated where. But it isn't distributed, isn't open source, isn't super cheap for commercial use (like $800 per seat). It is nice though. OpenWatcom uses it, for example. I could not find any hosting service. I might have spent the money if I could find one.
 
 
I'm also pretty sure the CVS web ui could be much better with little work.
I want to see the last n changes.
The last n day's changes.
And then quickly view the diffs of those changes.
Currently I have to navigate all around and click individual files.
 
 
Branching can be organizationally expensive.
You have to know what is branched. What changes have been picked up. Which branches are buildable and pass tests (tinderbox per branch).
Too much branching can be bad.
 
 > and have strong support from the broadest community
 
What will happen EVENTUALLY is CVS support will die off in favor of SVN or other.
I don't see community support for sccs and rcs for example.
 
I'm using http://www.svnrepository.com/
 
It would be nice if a source control system only dropped files/directories at the root of a tree, instead of in every single directory.
Like Perforce. Unlike CVS and SVN.
 
 - Jay


From: hosking at cs.purdue.eduTo: hendrik at topoi.pooq.comDate: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:21:00 -0400CC: m3devel at elegosoft.comSubject: Re: [M3devel] SVN migration, also promotion
Whatever system is used, it should be widely adoptable on many platforms, and have strong support from the broadest community.  To my mind, that means only cvs or svn at the present time.


Antony Hosking | Associate Professor | Computer Science | Purdue University
305 N. University Street | West Lafayette | IN 47907 | USA
Office +1 765 494 6001 | Mobile +1 765 427 5484


On Mar 16, 2008, at 11:10 PM, hendrik at topoi.pooq.com wrote:

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 01:44:25PM +0100, Olaf Wagner wrote:

I don't think it will be furthered by switching from CVS to SVN
or any other tool change.......

If there really is the wish within the community to switch from
CVS to SVN, then those interested should build a team, investigate
the impacts and propose a migration plan. Elego and me for one
would need new server setup, the actual repository migration (which
should preserve as much information as possible), setup of repository
replication to two machines, integration of SVN into the regression
test framework, setup of SVN clients, update / rewrite of all the
repository access information and CM guidelines, and a migration
strategy for all the existing HTTP links in search engines etc.

If I should make an estimation for this project in a commercial
environment, I'd say it will take 3-6 months and cost a client
between 40,000 and 80,000 Euros (that's currently 60,000 to 120,000$).
I'd rather invest these efforts for other goals. If other CM3 users
think it is worthwhile to do, they should just do it; after all, this
is an open source project.If such a group does reorganise the Modula 3 sources into a new revision control system, though, I'd strongly advise them to look into a distributed one.-- hendrik
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