[M3devel] Subject: Re: Fw: Modula-3 questions

[Mark Wickens]

Hi guys,

I've been following this conversation with interest. I'd like to offer my opinion, although I'm not sure I'm qualified that much to offer one. So please humour me ;)

I've been a contract and permanent software engineer for over a decade now. Although it is said that you should learn a new language every year, I'm guessing the definition of the word 'learn' depends on the amount of time and intellectual power you can apply. In my case, and I'm not sure I can completely use this as an excuse, I have small children so the amount of time I've got to do anything is limited.

I recognise there are limitations to any language, and Java has quite a few. Some say it has become the COBOL of the modern age. From my perspective, whilst there may be limitations, when I have a generic software problem to solve (and always in a hurry) it's very difficult to justify invest the time and effort to explore alternatives. Having said that, during Retrochallenge I've managed to code in both C, Pascal and VAX Macro (VAX/VMS languages). I did plan to spend a month coding Modula-3. This is still on the cards for a future competition. 

I find it very difficult to categorise programming languages in terms of interest. Clearly languages like C, C++, Java, .NET etc. with their commercial heritage are taught at University to provide students with a foot through the door to finding their first job. I ought to qualify that I'm thinking here of general purpose languages rather than domain-specific languages, such as PHP.

Other languages such as Scala and Erlang are designed to try and progress the ease with which multi-process/thread applications can be developed. Other more domain-specific languages such as Ruby are attempting to solve web-centric problems...

Interestingly I searched for 'programming languages hot' in google and one of the languages listed in the Infoworld article http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/7-programming-languages-the-rise-620?page=0,3 was COBOL, but this is primarily listed because of commercial interests. Searching job adverts for programming languages definitely won't get you the full picture.

So then we have languages for academic or personal interest. So where do we think that Modula-3 fits into this picture? One thing is for sure, it's not considered a 'hot' language, so I don't think you'll find many Universities teaching it now we're into 2010+ (please, please correct me if I'm wrong). 

To a certain extent the participants on this list are skewed - I would imagine you could work on the Modula-3 compiler given enough architecture knowledge without necessarily having a huge amount of Modula-3 development experience. So could development on the compiler be sold as a way of gaining concrete skills in compiler development (IIRC it's all developed in C)?

Then there are people who have developed projects in Modula-3 and found it a nice/useful/productive language to develop with. Having invested time in the language it would make sense to use the language.

So an alternative way of promoting the language would be to publish applications on the internet. 
I haven't searched for this, but I suspect that there aren't many recent articles.

I have lots of other thoughts about the matter, but would welcome comments...

Regards, Mark.

Sent from my iPad

On 20 Apr 2012, at 16:12, microcode at zoho.com wrote:

> On Fri Apr 20 14:47:49 2012 rodney_bates at lcwb.coop wrote
> 
>> On 04/20/2012 04:12 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
>>> I haven't found that book or any Modula-3 books online.
>>> 
>>> I agree that things are often best left alone and often ruined by
>>> constant change and people who want to make things into other things
>>> they were never intended to be. I said something similar a few debates
>>> ago. I don't care what's popular as long as it still exists :-)
>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>> "As long as it still exists" is the critical connection to popularity
>> here.  It takes a certain minimum of interested people to keep it in
>> existence.  Despite being dramatically simpler than the alternatives,
>> Modula-3 is still big enough that it needs several people to support it.
>> We are really a bit low on this front.
> 
> I don't know what's involved but I don't think I can be much help with
> coding, unfortunately. I have offered to help out with systems support in
> the past and the offer still stands. I can host a couple of development
> systems for Solaris 10 SPARC and Intel on an as-requested basis if
> developers need them to keep CM3 going. I believe those platforms are
> already supported so I don't think I'm helping much here either but just in
> case.
> 
> 
>> I can't seem to do the Modula-3 support I would like to do *and* use the
>> language for my own projects too.  And I'm retired.  Frustrating. 
> 
> Sounds like good problems to have. I will try to install CM3 on Solaris in
> the next few weeks. I had it on Linux but my install didn't seem like it
> was working since most of the examples got errors trying to build. I'm also
> busy with work and home stuff blah blah blah. I have a lot of things going
> on and I don't get to most of what I would like to either. I feel your
> pain ;-)
> 
> 
>