[M3devel] Subject: Re: Fw: Modula-3 questions

[Daniel Alejandro Benavides D.]

Hi all:
the last phrase taken from here:
http://books.google.com.co/books?id=M3F-lhug50cC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA137#v=onepage&q&f=false

and before that [1] (I clarify further real-world languages doesn't include neither Oberon or its relative cousin Java, nor Smalltalk, so this is easier to proof literally)

[1] I. A. and E. S. Society, COMPASS  ’94: proceedings of the Ninth Annual Conference on Computer Assurance : June 27-July 1, 1994, National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD : safety, reliability, fault tolerance, concurrency and real time security. Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, 1994.



--- El vie, 20/4/12, Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es> escribió:

> De: Daniel Alejandro Benavides D. <dabenavidesd at yahoo.es>
> Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Subject: Re:  Fw: Modula-3 questions
> Para: "m3devel at elegosoft.com" <m3devel at elegosoft.com>, "Mark Wickens" <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
> Fecha: viernes, 20 de abril, 2012 18:41
> Hi all:
> nice idea, but it didn't work earlier, what should I work on
> something that  anybody can do by their-selves, one of
> the most interesting things of learning a new language
> environment, is that to certain degree you are a baby in
> that world if you dare, that's how I feel about Modula-3, I
> cannot guarantee that because as Greg Nelson said, "Modula-3
> definition will perpetually incomplete" and computationally
> he was right but depending on the tool used for doing that
> affirmation.
> Thanks in advance
> 
> PS Now, imagine if they dare to define a model of software
> based on any language, but just if it were Modula-3 or any
> "real" language, the rest is just the same thing over and
> over again, projects that never deserve any mention.
> 
> --- El vie, 20/4/12, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
> escribió:
> 
> > De: Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
> > Asunto: Re: [M3devel] Subject: Re:  Fw: Modula-3
> questions
> > Para: "m3devel at elegosoft.com"
> <m3devel at elegosoft.com>
> > Fecha: viernes, 20 de abril, 2012 17:09
> > Hi guys,
> > 
> > I've been following this conversation with interest.
> I'd
> > like to offer my opinion, although I'm not sure I'm
> > qualified that much to offer one. So please humour me
> ;)
> > 
> > I've been a contract and permanent software engineer
> for
> > over a decade now. Although it is said that you should
> learn
> > a new language every year, I'm guessing the definition
> of
> > the word 'learn' depends on the amount of time and
> > intellectual power you can apply. In my case, and I'm
> not
> > sure I can completely use this as an excuse, I have
> small
> > children so the amount of time I've got to do anything
> is
> > limited.
> > 
> > I recognise there are limitations to any language, and
> Java
> > has quite a few. Some say it has become the COBOL of
> the
> > modern age. From my perspective, whilst there may be
> > limitations, when I have a generic software problem to
> solve
> > (and always in a hurry) it's very difficult to justify
> > invest the time and effort to explore alternatives.
> Having
> > said that, during Retrochallenge I've managed to code
> in
> > both C, Pascal and VAX Macro (VAX/VMS languages). I did
> plan
> > to spend a month coding Modula-3. This is still on the
> cards
> > for a future competition. 
> > 
> > I find it very difficult to categorise programming
> languages
> > in terms of interest. Clearly languages like C, C++,
> Java,
> > .NET etc. with their commercial heritage are taught at
> > University to provide students with a foot through the
> door
> > to finding their first job. I ought to qualify that
> I'm
> > thinking here of general purpose languages rather than
> > domain-specific languages, such as PHP.
> > 
> > Other languages such as Scala and Erlang are designed
> to try
> > and progress the ease with which multi-process/thread
> > applications can be developed. Other more
> domain-specific
> > languages such as Ruby are attempting to solve
> web-centric
> > problems...
> > 
> > Interestingly I searched for 'programming languages
> hot' in
> > google and one of the languages listed in the
> Infoworld
> > article http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/7-programming-languages-the-rise-620?page=0,3
> > was COBOL, but this is primarily listed because of
> > commercial interests. Searching job adverts for
> programming
> > languages definitely won't get you the full picture.
> > 
> > So then we have languages for academic or personal
> interest.
> > So where do we think that Modula-3 fits into this
> picture?
> > One thing is for sure, it's not considered a 'hot'
> language,
> > so I don't think you'll find many Universities teaching
> it
> > now we're into 2010+ (please, please correct me if I'm
> > wrong). 
> > 
> > To a certain extent the participants on this list are
> skewed
> > - I would imagine you could work on the Modula-3
> compiler
> > given enough architecture knowledge without
> necessarily
> > having a huge amount of Modula-3 development
> experience. So
> > could development on the compiler be sold as a way of
> > gaining concrete skills in compiler development (IIRC
> it's
> > all developed in C)?
> > 
> > Then there are people who have developed projects in
> > Modula-3 and found it a nice/useful/productive language
> to
> > develop with. Having invested time in the language it
> would
> > make sense to use the language.
> > 
> > So an alternative way of promoting the language would
> be to
> > publish applications on the internet. 
> > I haven't searched for this, but I suspect that there
> aren't
> > many recent articles.
> > 
> > I have lots of other thoughts about the matter, but
> would
> > welcome comments...
> > 
> > Regards, Mark.
> > 
> > Sent from my iPad
> > 
> > On 20 Apr 2012, at 16:12, microcode at zoho.com
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri Apr 20 14:47:49 2012 rodney_bates at lcwb.coop
> > wrote
> > > 
> > >> On 04/20/2012 04:12 AM, microcode at zoho.com
> > wrote:
> > >>> I haven't found that book or any Modula-3
> books
> > online.
> > >>> 
> > >>> I agree that things are often best left
> alone
> > and often ruined by
> > >>> constant change and people who want to
> make
> > things into other things
> > >>> they were never intended to be. I said
> > something similar a few debates
> > >>> ago. I don't care what's popular as long
> as it
> > still exists :-)
> > >           
>    
> >               
> 
> >     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > 
> > >> "As long as it still exists" is the critical
> > connection to popularity
> > >> here.  It takes a certain minimum of
> > interested people to keep it in
> > >> existence.  Despite being dramatically
> simpler
> > than the alternatives,
> > >> Modula-3 is still big enough that it needs
> several
> > people to support it.
> > >> We are really a bit low on this front.
> > > 
> > > I don't know what's involved but I don't think I
> can be
> > much help with
> > > coding, unfortunately. I have offered to help out
> with
> > systems support in
> > > the past and the offer still stands. I can host a
> > couple of development
> > > systems for Solaris 10 SPARC and Intel on an
> > as-requested basis if
> > > developers need them to keep CM3 going. I believe
> those
> > platforms are
> > > already supported so I don't think I'm helping
> much
> > here either but just in
> > > case.
> > > 
> > > 
> > >> I can't seem to do the Modula-3 support I
> would
> > like to do *and* use the
> > >> language for my own projects too.  And
> I'm
> > retired.  Frustrating. 
> > > 
> > > Sounds like good problems to have. I will try to
> > install CM3 on Solaris in
> > > the next few weeks. I had it on Linux but my
> install
> > didn't seem like it
> > > was working since most of the examples got errors
> > trying to build. I'm also
> > > busy with work and home stuff blah blah blah. I
> have a
> > lot of things going
> > > on and I don't get to most of what I would like
> to
> > either. I feel your
> > > pain ;-)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> >
>